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Attention all newbies

ICeMAnAbk

New Member
I told her what Jimmy Hotshot as said and that I was going to give up and enlist in the military.

Ugh, honestly, I wish I kept with it. I did what you were thinking, enlisted, and now I'm doing signs and military. I really should of stuck with the sign shop. starting over from square one after 7yrs in. The design wasn't the hard part for me, mainly it's always been the age factor. People see a guy that's 20 and don't take me serious. The other guy down the road was 40, did eye sore work. I've seen lime green outlines around yellow/orange faded lettering... Impact font.... The horror....

To piggie back, When I started, I was use to messing around with adobe photoshop a long time ago, so the crazy lettering was my thing when I started at 17. When I hit the books and started reading sign builder, sign craft, ordered some design books and just took a look at all the different designs others had made, the simplistic but clean cut and nice "flow" they had was what inspired me to stop with the crazy crap and go for the classier looks.

few key things I kept in the back of my mind....

Font spacing
only ONE style of script on a sign if using script
readable
There is more then Red Blue & Green on the rack
Less is more
Theme
Uniformity (for businesses)

Not everyone's style is the same. I've seen amazing cartoonish designs, and very sharp looking straight lettering with a small zing to it. Has to fit the customer's needs as well.
 

MikeD

New Member
I agree with what Fred said above:
"...While I was developing though, I would read all the trade magazines from cover to cover and I would bore my friends by constantly studying existing signs ... What do I like about this one? What do I not like about that one? How was that one made and how was it installed?..."
That is another very effective way to learn; by observation.

Taking criticism in the business world should not be an emotional experience either.

Making fine art for your own enjoyment is a different story, but I don't think people post here about fine art, we post in hopes of finding the best way to make profit. Having said that, I have seen lots of pictures here that look like fine art!
 

mezalick

New Member
Thanks for the very good info, but,, no real "formal" place to learn?
And before anyone comments,,,, no, I not talking about wearing a Tux....LOL
Michael
 

SignManiac

New Member
Try attending as many Letterhead meets as possible. That will open your eyes up to a whole new world. Just do a google search for upcoming meets.
 
I wouldn't be where I am after 2 years without the help I receive here on this forum and I will never make excuses for the criticism I receive on the forum, whether I agree or not. Opinions are opinions. If people can't handle opinions, they simply should refrain from asking for them and leave them for those who do respectfully take any criticism handed to them. Thank you Signs 101 for all your help and for helping to make me a better sign maker.

Fantastic thread, by the way! I'm so busy lately I hardly have time to come here and comment on threads, but this one is worth commenting on.

I second making this a sticky thread.
 

Mr Vinyl

New Member
Thanks

Read every single word and agree. Im in it to win it and am willing to learn. Thanks for the heads up.
 

jen.reelez

New Member
Inspiring Post=)

Like the post, esp. this line "Good design isn't just a tool, its the key to your financial success as well" :thumb:
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I should have added this... I mentioned this on Letterville once.
A very long time ago, I had a few books of letters and doodles
I made through high school. I always showed family members.
My mom and dad would always tell me they looked great, my
brother couldn't draw a straight line so who cares what he thought.
I started painting car club graphics on car windows and there was
a sign painter who lived close by. Never trusting my parents praise
I went to this sign professional and showed him my stuff. He
rummaged through one doodle book that had a few pics and grumbled
"What do you want me to say, you're good" I was devastated...
I really wanted some criticism or tips. Si Allen was the neighbor, and
he must have been in his mid to late 30's at the time... Never bugged
him again... but secretly I wanted to grunt for him at the time.

I got a few tips from other sign painters in the area at the time and
when a sign painter who worked at a theme park started going to my church,
I jumped on the chance, worked as a grunt and basic signs. But paying
attention to how they obsessed over layout was the biggest thing that stuck
to me... and a few for their love for the art of letter form or the reproducing
of it. At the same time, I was learning tradition print design.

I have only received harsh criticism a few times, but usually from
people I had no respect for or had no clue as to what good design was.
The ones I did respect, I paid close attention. I always asked people
better than me or people who will not hold back. I occasionally ask a muggle
(non-design folk) simply if it's effective or attractive. I did go to school for
a little bit, but my education was mostly through apprenticeship/mentoring.

What's great about this site is you get it unfiltered. You may not like the
delivery but quite a few of us really care about good design and layout.

To me, newbies come and go, they don't bug me all that much because
why care too much about a newbies idea of what good design is if they spew
out the same poor layouts I have seen for 15 years on sign/design forums.
It's the designers and sign people doing this for 5+ years who still design
(and price) like a newbie that tick me off. Some of this work should never
be on a website portfolio. Been looking at the local competition and quite a bit
of the work is basic sign shop to really poor examples of a good layout, or the
new thing is "brand intergration". Overly worded websites with very bad examples
of graphic design and branding. I live in the sticks and I halfway expected this,
but most of these places have been around for years. I never thought of them
as competition before, but now that we are going after local work, they
suddenly are. It will be interesting to see how I adjust to criticism from
a small business owner... guess I'll have to read Dan Antonelli's new book again.
 

Kaiser

New Member
Nice post.

A little on the harsh side but then again. Ive always been a little soft at heart, nonetheless, well said.

I have had similar experiences as a photographer.
Once I started working with one of the best, I had to forget everything I knew and start from scratch all over again. 3 years of thinking I was a big shot and BAM. Right in the kisser.

It all boils down to visual education IMHO. I still have a VERY long way to go before I can fill my mentors shoes, but then again, by the time I get there, he will be far more advanced. You see, this is the kind of chap who was practically born with a camera and hasnt stopped researching even in his 40s. My analogy on all this: today we look at the number 10 and we want it but by the time we get there, we see number 20 and we still feel like sh!t, we want that too. There will always be someone better than us. Might as well take advantage of that and learn from them.
 

Chuck Solid

New Member
Good design

Dear Sign Maniac (and others).
I've just joined this Forum and the first post I read was about the quality of work performed and criticism of your work. It must be said that "Constructive" criticism, whether from others or yourself, is the only way your work will improve.
"Destructive" critcism on the other hand usually comes from people who are either jealous, or feel threatened by you!
I had worked in metal fabrication since my teens and got into signage later in my career. I bought a Roland PNC100, some software and a few rolls of vinyl. I then proceeded to churn out signs for friends and family...until one day, I bought a copy of Signcraft magazine. I was astounded at the quality of the work on display and at the same time, embarassed and somewhat ashamed at how amateurish and poorly laid out my stuff looked! I still have one of the first Corflute signs I ever made, and whenever I'm getting a bit carried away with my own "cleverness", I take out the sign... see how bad it is... and come crashing down to earth again!
Mike Stevens book and Signcraft magazine are of infinite value to aspiring Sign people but we really need to be our own worst Critic! No matter how good our work is, we should all strive to make the next job better than the previous one: and look back at previous jobs to see what could have been done differently.
If you come to the point where you feel you couldn't improve on your last project, then maybe a career change might be in order. An old guy that I worked with as a teenager once said to me, ..."don't ask me if it's good enough, ask yourself "have I really done my very best?"
Regards Chuck



Lately there have been many post proudly showing your work and then you get upset when the more experienced veterans here try to help you with suggestions. Instead, you get your feelings hurt because not everyone believes your work to be as good as you think it is. You come here seeking praise but when you hear the truth, you think we're all being mean on purpose.

The fact is, the majority of people in the sign industry today have no proper education with regards to design and layout. You have not been trained or taught the art of graphic/sign design that is necessary if you are to be in the sign business. Just because you can execute and stick letters on a board does not make you a talented designer or artist. Even if you are not a natural artist, it is still possible to become a great sign designer if you take the necessary steps to learn the basics.

If you are really here to learn then you need to start with the fundamentals and most important of all, learn to take constructive criticism without getting you panties all wadded up.

Let me tell you a little story. Thirty years ago I was going on my sixth year in business being entirely self taught. Everything was hand lettered then because there was no such thing as a computer. Also there was no such thing back then like Signs 101 where information was offered among your competitors and peers. You have no idea how lucky you are that these professionals are taking time out of their busy day to offer the help they do. All the knowledge back when I started was a closely guarded secret. Hell most competitor shops would not allow you inside their buildings for fear that you might see what they were doing. It was damn near impossible to teach yourself but it could be done as I proved it myself.

One day I was off to Riverhead N.Y. a town about fifty miles from where I lived and I thought I would stop and visit a local sign shop of I guy I had run into one day.

His work was some of the best I had ever seen. He had a real sign shop with employees, tools, showroom, the real deal. I brought my portfolio along and wanted his opinion of my work. He was busy at the time but told me to show it to his young hot shot design guy in the next room.

Well this self proclaimed design god proceeded to rip me a new *** and told me I might as well quit and find another job. He said that unless I worked for another sign company I could never learn how to properly design and make signs.

My guts felt like they were ripped right out of me. My mouth hit the floor and I was flooded with emotions I'd never known before. I was devastated and crushed. I left his shop and got back in my car. My wife at the time took one look at me and said what's wrong? I told her what Jimmy Hotshot as said and that I was going to give up and enlist in the military.

She was silent a moment and then said to me, if Jimmy Hotshot is so damn good, why is he working for somebody else? She said to me, for the past six years you have done really well in the sign business and provided for your family all of those years. Why would you want to give up something you love doing so much?

Well after looking at it that way, I decided being the stubborn ***** that I can be, that I was going to prove that know it all wrong. From that moment on I became obsessed with being the best damn sign maker I could.

I read and studied every article in every sign mag, tried every new technique I could learn and most important of all, I never, never could be satisfied with any of my finished signs. Even when they were done and gone I would critique and analyze every single one trying to find ways of improving my work.

To this very day, thirty six years later after picking up that first brush, I'm still never satisfied that my work is good enough. Every once in a while I get a critique or suggestion from somebody and it may sting a little but, over the years I have developed elephant hide and take it as a way to continue improving.

The one thing that disturbs me most is the planetary infliction of visual pollution that has ruined our communities. I'm all for laws that will punish the graphically challenged because it has gotten that bad.

So if you aren't pissing and moaning by this post then I suggest you focus your education on design and layout. For those of you in the business ten years or more and never heard of Mike Stevens book "The art of eye appeal" I suggest you pony of a few bucks and invest in your future.

Good design isn't just a tool, its the key to your financial success as well. When you can design with the best of them, you can command premium prices and who the hell here doesn't want to get top dollar for your talent and skill?

Something to think about....
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Dear Sign Maniac (and others).
I've just joined this Forum and the first post I read was about the quality of work performed and criticism of your work. It must be said that "Constructive" criticism, whether from others or yourself, is the only way your work will improve.
"Destructive" critcism on the other hand usually comes from people who are either jealous, or feel threatened by you!
I had worked in metal fabrication since my teens and got into signage later in my career. I bought a Roland PNC100, some software and a few rolls of vinyl. I then proceeded to churn out signs for friends and family...until one day, I bought a copy of Signcraft magazine. I was astounded at the quality of the work on display and at the same time, embarassed and somewhat ashamed at how amateurish and poorly laid out my stuff looked! I still have one of the first Corflute signs I ever made, and whenever I'm getting a bit carried away with my own "cleverness", I take out the sign... see how bad it is... and come crashing down to earth again!
Mike Stevens book and Signcraft magazine are of infinite value to aspiring Sign people but we really need to be our own worst Critic! No matter how good our work is, we should all strive to make the next job better than the previous one: and look back at previous jobs to see what could have been done differently.
If you come to the point where you feel you couldn't improve on your last project, then maybe a career change might be in order. An old guy that I worked with as a teenager once said to me, ..."don't ask me if it's good enough, ask yourself "have I really done my very best?"
Regards Chuck


:ROFLMAO: :Big Laugh :banghead: and you think all the millions of hacks in this industry today give two hoots about what you just wrote ?? All the wannabees who can't draw, spell or compose care ?? Not a chance. It's like the gun laws..... they're only written for the people who obey, not the deviates who don't care.

Knowing the basics and how to execute those elements, matters only to a select few. Honing one's own skills and turning out good, only matters to those who care.
 

SignCutter

The Sign Cutter
Understood! It's all part of the learning curve in any endeavor. I'm going through it myself right now and it can sting but once I get past the sting I learn allot.;)
 

Jim Rossman

ID Promotions
great posts,

I am extremely new to the sign industry and appreciate all the knowledge. I came from the construction industry over the last 25 years and my body has decided that i have to retire. I am inspired and intimidated to take on this challenge. I look forward to learning from you and all of your critique. This is what I wanted to do for a long time.... But I got stuck in the construction rut.

of course my first questions are about pricing. Any advice on programs or ideas on where to start? I have had to deal with new people coming into my past profession that cut their pricing to take business and cause the industry to lose ground. I don't want to be that guy!

Thank You,
Jim Rossman
ID Promotions, inc
 

Bly

New Member
Find out what your competition charges and see if that makes sense to your business model.
 

2B

Active Member
Find out what your competition charges and see if that makes sense to your business model.

look both locally and online for pricing,
graphics are no longer a novelty item and are now more of a commodity, as such the pricing you offer has to find that happy medium
 

DJr

New Member
:ROFLMAO: :Big Laugh :banghead: and you think all the millions of hacks in this industry today give two hoots about what you just wrote ?? All the wannabees who can't draw, spell or compose care ?? Not a chance. It's like the gun laws..... they're only written for the people who obey, not the deviates who don't care.

Knowing the basics and how to execute those elements, matters only to a select few. Honing one's own skills and turning out good, only matters to those who care.

Amen!!


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