New Guy The 50-year-old Startup

[kevin]

Hello all!

I'm new to the forums here, but not new to the sign business. But I'm having some issues I could use some guidance on, so please bear with me while I explain.

I grew up in our family's (well, my Dad's) sign business, and over the last 25+ years, I've come to help out on & off between my other careers (digital graphics, computer technician). Last fall, I quit my full time computer tech/consultant job to come help revive the sign business that has withered on the vine for the past decade or so (the reason: Dad is not good with technology, and has refused to learn any tools newer than the Gerber SignMaker Sprint).

While Dad used to be very good at what he did, he sort of "checked out" of the sign business about 10 years ago (focusing on another contracting business instead), and left the running of the sign business to various younger, more technically savvy people who could actually run the software and equipment.

Dad still wants to be very hands-on, but his general knowledge of the industry is rusty, at best. Part of why I joined this forum is to reach out to resources that may help me to stay current.

So, my challenge is to see what I can do to get this thing going again, while also trying to carefully navigate an obstinate, yet well-intentioned luddite who wants to retain some semblance of control of his shop (but is really just getting in the way of productivity).

Growing up, I always assumed I'd just work for Dad at his shop, but after I got back from college, it became evident we couldn't work well together, so I went out and forged my own career path. Fortunately, those paths involved digital graphics and technology, so I have that going for me. And having a lifetime of experience with design and layout, as well as some formal artistic training, doesn't hurt, either.

At any rate, I'll be posting a few more threads as I see fit, with more specific topics. But for this one, like the title states, I'm basically inheriting a 50-year-old business that I need to treat like a startup. We have some barebones equipment, but since we share space with our sibling businesses, we lack things like a proper production floor (no climate controlled place to coat out blanks), no dedicated installation team (or equipment). I'm currently trying to see where our business fits in today's environment...it really is like we're stepping out into the world after emerging from a 15-year coma.

 

[bannertime]

Welcome! Wow... This sounds exactly like my life... Except military instead of college. I'm just a few years ahead of you. It only gets harder, but it does get better. Make good friends with your local suppliers. Meet with them face to face. Tour a larger print shop in the area. Make friends with them. You don't need to go right into new equipment. Create a solid vendor list like Signs365, B2Signs, Stouse, 4over and some merchant members, etc. Re-establish yourself and maybe refresh your website and logo. Make the business yours. You'll loose some customers but you'll gain new ones as the community gets familiar with you. Just don't get stuck doing things half way. This place has been wonderful, lots of great help here.

 

[KSTrooper]

Hello!

My situation is similar as well. I have 20 years of sign experience, and I signed on with a different shop after almost 18 years at the first one. New place (about 40 years old) has a lot of the same issues....outdated equipment, little to no space to work and a young and largely inexperienced staff with a LOT of bad habits that need breaking. It's been frustrating sometimes but I think we are seeing some real progress.

 

[ams]

What type of equipment do you have? and what is your target market?

 

[Johnny Best]

I might be older than your father and have a good friend who is in the same position as him. He comes by my place and has been staring at my printer and asking all sorts of questions about software, laminator and how things work. He was a sign painter and purchased a Gerber 4b when they first came out but has never gone beyond that. He has been married and divorced two times since then and tells me he just makes enough so his ex's can't get anything. "just enough for beer" are his words. Now he is 71 and wants to get back into producing more signs. I told him I am going to give him my Mutoh and RIP as a present and lets see what he can do with them. So now we have to figure out how to get it over to his shop.
I think its great you are getting his shop back up to the modern times, he will enjoy it. Watching a large format printer producing beautiful colorful signs is exciting.

 

[kevin]

What type of equipment do you have? and what is your target market?

Great questions. Equipment: Roland VersaCAMM VP-300, Roland CAMM-1Servo GX-24, plus various shop/woodworking tools. As far as design/layout, I'm partial to Macs, so I brought in a Mac mini and use Affinity Designer as much as I can before handing it off to Adobe Illustrator CS3 on our barebones Windows 10 PC. I also use Pixelmator on the Mac as needed, and an app called Image Vectorizer. On the PC, we also have CorelDRAW X7 (which I try to avoid – I don't care much for the UI), and Photoshop CS3 Extended. Oh, and of course we're using Roland VersaWorks 5.5.1 on the PC to drive the Rolands.

[EDIT to add: Oh, and as a bonus, we have the carcasses of about 5 Signmaker IVb's sitting around ("for parts"), and a Sprint that just sits collecting dust.]

As far as our target market? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Although we have some residual repeat customers just from being around for 50 years, right now, we're only afloat because Dad's other business is doing well. My initial thought was that we could reinvent the shop as a "classic" sign shop, offering more craftsman-like offerings that a typical vinyl shop...but the challenge there is that I haven't put the time in to learn things like brush lettering, wood carving, or gilding. Since Dad can't do many of those things any longer, the only "classic" training I have is decent layout and typography skills.

My sister (who also quit her job to come work at Dad's businesses, although in an executive/administrative capacity) & I have knocked around the idea of pumping out novelty decals with the cutters, but we'd have to hit certain niches pretty solidly if we were to differentiate from the thousands of other vinyl decal shops out there, on Etsy and beyond.

So I guess the answer is, I'm not sure exactly what our target market is at the moment. Sis & I are exploring what we can & can't produce, either working around or accounting for Dad's insistence on being involved in (but really kind of getting in the way of) the business.

 

[kevin]

I might be older than your father and have a good friend who is in the same position as him. He comes by my place and has been staring at my printer and asking all sorts of questions about software, laminator and how things work. He was a sign painter and purchased a Gerber 4b when they first came out but has never gone beyond that. He has been married and divorced two times since then and tells me he just makes enough so his ex's can't get anything. "just enough for beer" are his words. Now he is 71 and wants to get back into producing more signs. I told him I am going to give him my Mutoh and RIP as a present and lets see what he can do with them. So now we have to figure out how to get it over to his shop.
I think its great you are getting his shop back up to the modern times, he will enjoy it. Watching a large format printer producing beautiful colorful signs is exciting.

Dad is similar to your friend in some respects. First, he's about the same age (72). Second, he almost seems as if he doesn't want the business (both the sign business and his contracting business) to succeed/grow beyond just the handful of 1099 employees he already has (I'm the only one in the sign shop). Maybe it's because he's had some headaches with accounting/tax stuff, and that's just not his thing...I don't know. He shudders over the thought of establishing an actual payroll.
Over the years, he's never taken my advice or help, whether it was recommending new equipment or computers (at one point, before he even owned a computer aside from his Gerber equipment, I put together a Mac with all the software needed for him, and he rejected it outright, saying he wanted a Windows machine). But eventually, he would capitulate after someone else would recommend the same things to him. So he bought some equipment and tech over the years, but usually it was whatever the sign shop helper at the time would recommend, so we ended up with a hodgepodge of tech tools.

I think the only reason he asked me to come now is that he's been burned by the string of hires he's made to run the sign business over the years (with the exception of one guy, who was great – but he got hired away into another industry with an amazing offer that was completely understandable for him to take). I'm trying to do what I can, but so far the business has been losing money during my tenure (since last Fall). I'm hoping I can re-acclimate enough to make it a respectable business again.

 

[bilge]

Why don't you be 1100th employee? I think you'd learn from your father while helping him the contracting business. I guess it will be yours anyday. If you really love to do signs then you can invest your time and money into it. But it seems your dad's sign shop too far behind the competitors, you will face to start from scratch.

 

[kevin]

Yikes. I didn't realize it had been nearly a year since I posted on these forums.

Why don't you be 1100th employee?

Oops. I should have clarified for the non-US crowd that my reference to 1099 in my post above is the number of a tax form used for contract employees (as opposed to direct hires). In actuality, my father employs 5 people, plus me and my sister. I am the sole sign shop employee.

I think you'd learn from your father while helping him the contracting business. I guess it will be yours anyday. If you really love to do signs then you can invest your time and money into it. But it seems your dad's sign shop too far behind the competitors, you will face to start from scratch.

Your assessment is correct. Over the years, I have learned much from my father. Unfortunately, the current state of his sign shop is a result of his refusal to learn from others, adapt to industry trends, and grow the business for the past couple of decades. Within the past year, it has become clear that he has no interest in investing anything further into the business, whether it is money or his time. I have also learned that I can't run a shop alone. So, on this, the 50th year of his business, we are looking to most likely close it, since we can't afford the investment needed to catch up and make it a viable business again.

It's a shame.

 

[Gino]

Your Dad is still young, but has most likely lost the 'DRIVE'. It's hard to cope with things, when you don't know how to do certain things anymore.

Perhaps, you could sub work out and still keep the business going. If you still have willing customers and some new ones, it's never too late to re-group and push forward. Find your strong points and get rid of your weaker ones. Between you and your sister, you can probably bring this thing around again, until you can update more equipment.



Good luck

 

[tdgraphics]

It is best to try and find something that you can concentrate on as a revenue stream from the start. Are there many sign shops in your locality? Things like novelty decals, or other 'goodies' are well catered for by big companies. Are you in a large town were you can provide nice shop signs,using some of the classic sign making techniques? If you can specialise in something like that. It can always be complemented by other things, decals, cori signs etc. etc. Do you have a lot of car dealers, do they need advertising decals for vehicles? You can either supply and fit or supply only, You need to get to know what others are doing. Don't just follow, look at things that others do, then see if there are gaps that can be filled by your offering. Your dad although may have lost some of his drive, by involving him and his skill set you may be able to combine modern methods to classic signage and ideas he may have.

You will always find that someone will do any job cheaper, but competing only on price is a race to the bottom. Make sure your offering is the best it can be, with the best materials. Don't over spend on things. I do a lot of fleet work, on 3 year leases. I use Avery 500 event file on most, simply because in our climate its a 5 year materials that does not have the riggers of heat or cold. I know that the decals on the fleets will look as good when they come back as when they went out. I know some sign shops put 7 and 10 year material on a van that will be on the road for 3 years and get thrown back to the lease company, why?

Look for things you can use as strengths, use the best materials you can for the job, but don't overspend for no reason.

I have found that doing ting like to above have kept us in business for the past 15 years. I purchased the company form a relative who was mainly into striping and some die cut work. I moved into printing with a Roland SP-540 back in 2003. I still have a good relationship with Roland, although my printer is newer now. but sometimes you need to take the business in a slightly different direction but use all the strengths that you have available to you to give a good service and product.

All the best, I hope it all works out for you.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Great questions. Equipment: Roland VersaCAMM VP-300, Roland CAMM-1Servo GX-24, plus various shop/woodworking tools. As far as design/layout, I'm partial to Macs, so I brought in a Mac mini and use Affinity Designer as much as I can before handing it off to Adobe Illustrator CS3 on our barebones Windows 10 PC. I also use Pixelmator on the Mac as needed, and an app called Image Vectorizer. On the PC, we also have CorelDRAW X7 (which I try to avoid – I don't care much for the UI), and Photoshop CS3 Extended. Oh, and of course we're using Roland VersaWorks 5.5.1 on the PC to drive the Rolands.

[EDIT to add: Oh, and as a bonus, we have the carcasses of about 5 Signmaker IVb's sitting around ("for parts"), and a Sprint that just sits collecting dust.]

As far as our target market? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Although we have some residual repeat customers just from being around for 50 years, right now, we're only afloat because Dad's other business is doing well. My initial thought was that we could reinvent the shop as a "classic" sign shop, offering more craftsman-like offerings that a typical vinyl shop...but the challenge there is that I haven't put the time in to learn things like brush lettering, wood carving, or gilding. Since Dad can't do many of those things any longer, the only "classic" training I have is decent layout and typography skills.

My sister (who also quit her job to come work at Dad's businesses, although in an executive/administrative capacity) & I have knocked around the idea of pumping out novelty decals with the cutters, but we'd have to hit certain niches pretty solidly if we were to differentiate from the thousands of other vinyl decal shops out there, on Etsy and beyond.

So I guess the answer is, I'm not sure exactly what our target market is at the moment. Sis & I are exploring what we can & can't produce, either working around or accounting for Dad's insistence on being involved in (but really kind of getting in the way of) the business.

While it sounds kinds daunting, I think that you could probable look at this as a good thing. Like you said this is a excuse to re-invent yourself and the company to the community.
Not sure of the area you in and what the market looks like, but if you guys are already in the construction business, why not start working with those existing clients and see if you can upsale them on window graphics or some sort of parking lot signs, banners, etc... get more comfortable with doing some graphics on the company vehicles, and smaller jobs, find out what you guys like doing, what your good at and expand from there.

As far as the mac vs pc thing, it depends on the software that your using. If your feel more comfortable on the mac, that's fine. I would however have your rip station as a pc as it will give you more flexibility with software.

If/When you plan on upgrading, look at latex.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Yikes. I didn't realize it had been nearly a year since I posted on these forums.


Oops. I should have clarified for the non-US crowd that my reference to 1099 in my post above is the number of a tax form used for contract employees (as opposed to direct hires). In actuality, my father employs 5 people, plus me and my sister. I am the sole sign shop employee.



Your assessment is correct. Over the years, I have learned much from my father. Unfortunately, the current state of his sign shop is a result of his refusal to learn from others, adapt to industry trends, and grow the business for the past couple of decades. Within the past year, it has become clear that he has no interest in investing anything further into the business, whether it is money or his time. I have also learned that I can't run a shop alone. So, on this, the 50th year of his business, we are looking to most likely close it, since we can't afford the investment needed to catch up and make it a viable business again.

It's a shame.

So how is it going now? Has it gotten any better over the last year?

You don't necessarily have to close the doors. There's nothing wrong with brokering until you can get enough money flowing in that you can start producing in house again.

 

[WrapYourCar]

Sounds like you're only on this forum to complain about your Father... you need to step up and take the initiative yourself, be thankful your father has left you something to take over.. think of the positives your Dad has and build from that, if you're running Illustrator CS3 in 2017 then i think you have dropped the ball and are behind not your father. I run a small business and you're right it's hard to do it alone.. do you have a wife/brother that can help? my wife and I pretty much juggle about 4 peoples jobs each. There are tons of youtube videos now that will teach you most things with installations etc. pickup the tools learn to do it all...

 

[James Burke]

TL/DR...I posted the following after the fact that you determined to close the business.

Since nobody's done it yet, I have to beg the ultimate question for you and your siblings:

Is this something you really WANT to do, or is it more of a nostalgia thing.

A time will come when you're going to need something to keep you going when everything around you is going south. What will that be?

Do you have a clear path for conflict resolution with your father and siblings? How about a written exit plan for each of you?

It sounds like each of you have given up significant careers elsewhere to build / rebuild a dream. Whose dream is that...really?

I'm not trying to discourage you...I wish I had a similar opportunity...but reality is reality.


JB

 

[kevin]

Sounds like you're only on this forum to complain about your Father... you need to step up and take the initiative yourself, be thankful your father has left you something to take over.. think of the positives your Dad has and build from that, if you're running Illustrator CS3 in 2017 then i think you have dropped the ball and are behind not your father. I run a small business and you're right it's hard to do it alone.. do you have a wife/brother that can help? my wife and I pretty much juggle about 4 peoples jobs each. There are tons of youtube videos now that will teach you most things with installations etc. pickup the tools learn to do it all...

I suppose that's one viewpoint. Although the purpose isn't really to complain, as much as to maybe see if anyone else has been able to successfully negotiate similar obstacles with family members / Founder's Syndrome. (BTW, the only reason he's running any design software at all is due to my insisting to his previous employees that they were necessary. I've only been back at the shop for 1.5 years now.)

 

[kevin]

TL/DR...I posted the following after the fact that you determined to close the business.

Since nobody's done it yet, I have to beg the ultimate question for you and your siblings:

Is this something you really WANT to do, or is it more of a nostalgia thing.

A time will come when you're going to need something to keep you going when everything around you is going south. What will that be?

Do you have a clear path for conflict resolution with your father and siblings? How about a written exit plan for each of you?

It sounds like each of you have given up significant careers elsewhere to build / rebuild a dream. Whose dream is that...really?

I'm not trying to discourage you...I wish I had a similar opportunity...but reality is reality.


JB

All good points. There is definitely a sense of familial obligation at play, but this is something I can enjoy doing, if I can do it properly and with quality. Right now, that's just not there. All signs point to us just throwing in the towel, but there's this nagging sense of duty to keep this thing going, since it's been around for so long now. It's just hard, since the person we're trying to honor by continuing and growing what he started is the primary obstacle to making that happen.

 

[James Burke]

Founder's Syndrome.

I never knew such a name existed, however I've seen it first-hand in some companies I've worked for. Nobody want's to be on a train bound for nowhere. Except, perhaps Kenny Rodgers.

I visited one former shop I'd worked for, after being away for 20 years. I was appalled how much was still the same. The boss was really just an employee who'd rather keep to himself instead of managing and building a vision for all to follow.

Many founders are "stedys" rather than visionaries.

JB