2000 store install pricing

[jkdbjj]

Hi, anyone with experience I would appreciate your feedback.

Client I have is a national company. I have been doing their local installs as of late, but the request has been given to me to look at the rest of their roll out of 2-3000 stores. Currently I am just charging a flat per store fee.

My question is, if you've been involved with this type of job, how did you approach pricing? Was it per store, or per day, or lump sum, or what?

The job is rather simple, it is applying 3M vinyl to three walls, averaging about 75 sqft per store. The graphics are shipped directly to each store and I or an employee installs them.

I imagine there are a few things to consider:

• Actual cost of once inside the store what the charge will be
• cost to get to the stores nationally, drive/fly
• lodging along the way

The benefit of them hiring me and my small team to do this, is they don't have to find installers at every area, thus giving them consistent quality and saving them labor time searching local installers.

Thanks for any info based upon your past experiences.

 

[reQ]

Why would you drive/fly to stores yourself just to install some vinyl on the walls? We do tons of work for other companies, who supply big chains. They send product to install and contractor shops take care of installation.

 

[jkdbjj]

Why would you drive/fly to stores yourself just to install some vinyl on the walls? We do tons of work for other companies, who supply big chains. They send product to install and contractor shops take care of installation.

I am a small company, and could use the work. The client is happy with our work so far. They are interested in continuing that relationship.
I do have the option of finding people to go install the graphics for me, but then I am in the same boat the client is in having to track down local installers everywhere.

Not to mention, I think this is going to boil down to 150/store is the rate they are going to offer, for 2000 stores which would be for one years worth of work. The question then becomes is 300,000 enough for me after expenses for the year, or can I afford to find local installers while I stay home and still make money.

It takes an average of about 2 hours per store to get these graphics up. Do you really think I can find quality installers to do this job for less than 150/store? Leaving with me anything to profit?

Anyway, this is why I posted so I could get some feedback, so thanks for talking and helping me think this out. I don't want to rip myself off

 

[reQ]

If they pay $150 per store fixed rate that not to much in a first place. Now imagine if you have to travel A LOT, do you think you can do it for $150 per store? I am not talking about profit, but you will be losing money.
And answering your another question - i don't think subcontractor shop would touch something like that for $150.00.
Just to give you and example - to hang 4 banner of 3x7 ft (magnet attachments), we get paid 275.00, other way its no worth it

 

[reQ]

And ask yourself - are they happy with your work or they are happy that they found someone who is willing to do installs at this price tag

here is simple math - if it takes 2 hours to complete one install... there are 2000 stores, then you will need 4000 hours on installs (will not count extras etc). So you can do 4 stores a day if they are close to each other, that means you will have to spend 500 days non stop 7 days a week to complete the job. Now think about travel time etc etc etc.

 

[TimToad]

First, I want to congratulate you on gaining the respect and confidence of a chain with that kind of growth potential. With that being said, I personally don't see how you could possibly justify absorbing all the travel expenses you and even one other person going cross country to do 2 hours worth of work.

None of it makes sense to me, and I would be very careful in your thought process about all of it.

What if only 20 stores get built in a year? Does the price per store go up if they build less than the projected number? Its highly unlikely, but what if 1,000 get built in a year. Even a couple hundred stores would have you jetting around the country for $150.00 per store. This sounds like some corporate purchasing manager or lawyer cooked this up and sees perhaps a little naivete on your part about the practical nuts and bolts of how to manage a project of this scale and logistics.

There is no possible way to service this yourself without outside help.There are only so many hours in the day.

Do you produce the graphics and what are they worth? 75 sq. feet of graphics even on Aspire or some other 5 year material in my shop is $750.00 just for the prints. If you produce the prints, you have your markup on that aspect but that isn't going to cover the enormous travel costs you will incur. Who will watch your business while you are gone?

 

[tattoo.dan]

yeah, I agree with everyone so far. no way you make money on this at that rate. It sounds cool and I am sure it would have me excited and getting my wheels turning for a while too. I think if you listen to the advice on here you will be really glad you posted this.

 

[jkdbjj]

More info

Hi guys, thanks so far. I was not sure what info would be relevant to help with getting good responses. I see now what info to add to the conversation.

If I would fly or drive to an area, say Washington DC. I would stay there for a couple weeks working on about 5 stores a day, five days a week. So, in theory one trip charge to get to the area, and a bunch of stores get knocked out in that one area. So say 50 stores in DC times 150 would be 7500 dollars for 10 days worth of work. Deduct expense of getting there, probably 400 dollars, then lodging at 70/night is another 700 dollars. Then food and whatever a day, maybe 50/day totalling another 500 dollars.
So, 7500.00
-400
-700
-500
____________
$5900.00

Next, all the stores are already built. What it is, is a convenience chain updating a certain area inside the store nationally. We did the test market here for the last three weeks, about 20 stores, just doing them on Thursday and Friday each week.

A comment was made that 150/store is too little. Currently I am charging 300/store, but now they are offering 2-3000 stores so they are going to expect a price reduction. However, human labor is hard to reduce, and I am racking my brain wondering how they are going to find a "much" better offer than I am doing.

Does that help a little guys?
thanks again.

 

[reQ]

Rule of thumb - if you think it will take X amount of time to do X amount work - multiply ur time by 2. I can't see you doing 50 stores in 10 day. Point is, that its not enough of money to justify that kind of project.
Maybe some one will have different opinion, but that what i think.

 

[Vinylman]

"Going to expect..."??

Hi guys, thanks so far. I was not sure what info would be relevant to help with getting good responses. I see now what info to add to the conversation.

If I would fly or drive to an area, say Washington DC. I would stay there for a couple weeks working on about 5 stores a day, five days a week. So, in theory one trip charge to get to the area, and a bunch of stores get knocked out in that one area. So say 50 stores in DC times 150 would be 7500 dollars for 10 days worth of work. Deduct expense of getting there, probably 400 dollars, then lodging at 70/night is another 700 dollars. Then food and whatever a day, maybe 50/day totalling another 500 dollars.
So, 7500.00
-400
-700
-500
____________
$5900.00

Next, all the stores are already built. What it is, is a convenience chain updating a certain area inside the store nationally. We did the test market here for the last three weeks, about 20 stores, just doing them on Thursday and Friday each week.

A comment was made that 150/store is too little. Currently I am charging 300/store, but now they are offering 2-3000 stores so they are going to expect a price reduction. However, human labor is hard to reduce, and I am racking my brain wondering how they are going to find a "much" better offer than I am doing.

Does that help a little guys?
thanks again.

Nice of you to update the information to let us know what you are currently charging. [$300/ per store]

When I first started to read this thread I was assuming you where getting $150/per store.

IF this company has 3000 stores for you to service, you could let them know that you will still charge them $300 per store, if they guarantee you the entire contract {in Writing / Contract}. With that, you will agree to pay all your own expenses. You would need to be able to set the scheduling and routing of the installations to gain the greatest time / travel utilization. With proper planning and aggressive installation progress this could be a very profitable endeavor.

I would NOT offer any discount. Rather your offer to cover all your travel expenses is their incentive to give you the contract.

I would also demand a substantial up front deposit, with monthly payments as the job moves forward. Final payment could be paid within 30 days of last install. Make sure on-site store managers have the authorization to sign off as the stores are completed, so you have a running record of the completed installs for your protection.

I would suggest you take your time in looking at the variables, on make sure you maintain ALL the controllable variables.

 

[2B]

Hi guys, thanks so far. I was not sure what info would be relevant to help with getting good responses. I see now what info to add to the conversation.

If I would fly or drive to an area, say Washington DC. I would stay there for a couple weeks working on about 5 stores a day, five days a week. So, in theory one trip charge to get to the area, and a bunch of stores get knocked out in that one area. So say 50 stores in DC times 150 would be 7500 dollars for 10 days worth of work. Deduct expense of getting there, probably 400 dollars, then lodging at 70/night is another 700 dollars. Then food and whatever a day, maybe 50/day totalling another 500 dollars.
So, 7500.00
-400
-700
-500
____________
$5900.00

Next, all the stores are already built. What it is, is a convenience chain updating a certain area inside the store nationally. We did the test market here for the last three weeks, about 20 stores, just doing them on Thursday and Friday each week.

A comment was made that 150/store is too little. Currently I am charging 300/store, but now they are offering 2-3000 stores so they are going to expect a price reduction. However, human labor is hard to reduce, and I am racking my brain wondering how they are going to find a "much" better offer than I am doing.

Does that help a little guys?
thanks again.

While it is a good rule of thumb to offer QTY discounts. This is not one of those especially if travel time / expenses are not included.

the other note is if all of these stores are already built and you are updating a section of the store

• what condition are the walls in?
  • have the store you done all been identical in prep-work?
• what tools are needed
  • you say 75 SQFT, what sort of interruption does this cause within the store?
  • What safety precautions do you have to have inplace

 

[TimToad]

You just put the hammer on the head of the issue. You can't apply a volume discount to human labor.

I can see a volume discount for the graphics themselves if you are producing them, but not on the thing you can't economize on.

 

[GAC05]

Rule of thumb - if you think it will take X amount of time to do X amount work - multiply ur time by 2. I can't see you doing 50 stores in 10 day. Point is, that its not enough of money to justify that kind of project.
Maybe some one will have different opinion, but that what i think.

This

We service 13 retail stores here and just to do a network wide site survey - spending 15 to 30 minutes at each store eats up the whole day.
Travel time between the stores even in a small local area adds up fast, especially if you are not familiar with the area.
We have a good deal of safety protocol that we have to follow at each location that involves paperwork, check in with shift supervisors, clearing and coning off the work area from foot or vehicle traffic, etc.
In some locations we have to have a "responsible person in charge" that has to stand by and observe the work - he can't help with the work, he has to watch both the crew and the customers and act to keep anything bad from happening between the two.
You might not have to deal with any of this but if you are working in the retail area during business hours some of it will have to be addressed and could slow things down for you.
Factor it all in and see if your numbers still hold up.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[jkdbjj]

Little more info...

I can't just go to these stores on my own route schedule.
What is happening is I am following an outfit that is installing new cabinets, and the graphics are applied to the cabinet. So I have to be at the store at the same time as the cabinet installers. It is their job, and they are not comfortable at all installing vinyl that big.
The surface is laminate wood, and perfect ready for new vinyl. I have install down to 1-2 hours depending on how fast I want to go.
Currently I did 3 per day for the test market and that took me about 6 hours to do, and that included driving between stores. So I think five is certainly easy to do, as long as they are somewhat close.

It is interesting that many of you think I should stick to my guns on price, and I like the idea of offering that I cover travel expense in lieu of contract guarantees. Certainly some great ideas to think about.

I've already told my wife that it would mean I would basically be gone for the year, but as someone pointed out, the payoff could be very good on this.

Mostly, it's because I've already done the test markets and have an idea of what I am getting into gives me confidence I can do the job. I just didn't want to lose the job because I'm pricing it greedily or something.

They are great people, and we love working together, so I really want it to be fair for all of us. It is just a little mind boggling the potential payoff, so I am of course really looking forward to it.

Thanks for all the thoughts, it helped a LOT!

 

[Vinylman]

Very interesting

Little more info...

I can't just go to these stores on my own route schedule.
What is happening is I am following an outfit that is installing new cabinets, and the graphics are applied to the cabinet. So I have to be at the store at the same time as the cabinet installers. It is their job, and they are not comfortable at all installing vinyl that big.
The surface is laminate wood, and perfect ready for new vinyl. I have install down to 1-2 hours depending on how fast I want to go.
Currently I did 3 per day for the test market and that took me about 6 hours to do, and that included driving between stores. So I think five is certainly easy to do, as long as they are somewhat close.

It is interesting that many of you think I should stick to my guns on price, and I like the idea of offering that I cover travel expense in lieu of contract guarantees. Certainly some great ideas to think about.

I've already told my wife that it would mean I would basically be gone for the year, but as someone pointed out, the payoff could be very good on this.

Mostly, it's because I've already done the test markets and have an idea of what I am getting into gives me confidence I can do the job. I just didn't want to lose the job because I'm pricing it greedily or something.

They are great people, and we love working together, so I really want it to be fair for all of us. It is just a little mind boggling the potential payoff, so I am of course really looking forward to it.

Thanks for all the thoughts, it helped a LOT!

It sure would be nice if you would have given ALL the details in the initial request for information. Trickeling additional information seems to me to be counter productive to you getting the best answers to your current contract information.

that being said, with the NEW information here is something worth considering.

Would it be possible for you to work directly with the cabinet maker/installer, and apply the decals at their manufacturing facility? It would put the finished cabinets in one location, and it would not hinder the shipping or installation procedure in any way. Actually, it would speed up the entire procedure for "Your client". I would approach them to set up a meeting with the cabinet manufacture/installer and work out the details. Any qualified installer crew would be able and expected to handle the cabinetry with due care, and IF there was any onsite damage to your graphics, you could make private arrangements to repair or replace on an as needed basis. [charging the cabinet installers for any additional costs] as they would be responsible to the "client" in any event to provide a perfect punch list installation regardless of whether the cabinets where factory original, or with your graphics factory attached.

With your established contacts and working relationship with Corporate, I would seriously consider putting this offer on their table for consideration.

P.S. As a final consideration, IF you work these details to your advantage, you might consider a very small discount at the end of the contract [final payment] discount. I would hold this part of the offer back as a final "pot sweetener".

 

[jkdbjj]

It sure would be nice if you would have given ALL the details in the initial request for information. Trickeling additional information seems to me to be counter productive to you getting the best answers to your current contract information.

that being said, with the NEW information here is something worth considering.

Would it be possible for you to work directly with the cabinet maker/installer, and apply the decals at their manufacturing facility? It would put the finished cabinets in one location, and it would not hinder the shipping or installation procedure in any way. Actually, it would speed up the entire procedure for "Your client". I would approach them to set up a meeting with the cabinet manufacture/installer and work out the details. Any qualified installer crew would be able and expected to handle the cabinetry with due care, and IF there was any onsite damage to your graphics, you could make private arrangements to repair or replace on an as needed basis. [charging the cabinet installers for any additional costs] as they would be responsible to the "client" in any event to provide a perfect punch list installation regardless of whether the cabinets where factory original, or with your graphics factory attached.

With your established contacts and working relationship with Corporate, I would seriously consider putting this offer on their table for consideration.

P.S. As a final consideration, IF you work these details to your advantage, you might consider a very small discount at the end of the contract [final payment] discount. I would hold this part of the offer back as a final "pot sweetener".

I agree about the info. As I was writing it it was hard to decide what exactly to say. Sometimes posts can be SOOOO long no one reads them.
At the same time, I knew more info might be needed, so please accept my apology. It wasn't intentional.

To your suggestion, it is a very good one.
I am going to consider a variation of that.

What I have run into is the crew several times has had to make field cuts to the cabinets to fit plumbing and so forth. Not on every store but some, and that modified what everyone else had to do.
With that said, those could be some of those case by case examples you mentioned.

The other aspect is the main backwall is very tight, in that it has to be forced, or slid between the two outer walls as this whole thing creates a inward canopy of sorts. I do see the graphics getting pretty damaged. However, perhaps it would be worth applying a layer of masking tape until time to reveal.

Muchos Gracias, I'll be sure to send you a commision check when this is done

 

[Pat Whatley]

You're planning on installing five stores a day for 10 days....while following a cabinet crew around. What kind of cabinet crew can knock out five store refits in a day? While making custom cuts for electrical and plumbing?

As great as this job sounds it's screaming at me that it would quickly turn into driving 500 miles to a location, expecting to be able to knock out 25 jobs in a week, but the cabinet people are behind so you only do 5 in that week, then they take the weekend off, then they do 19 the next week but won't be able to get the last one done until two weeks later because somebody dropped a cabinet and they have to make a new one. You have to drive 500 miles home, then two weeks later drive 500 miles to install one graphic and drive 500 miles back home all for the grand price of $150.

 

[Gino]

Sounds like you have far too many variables of which you have no control. Anything go wrong, and you're up that famous creek without a paddle.

I had a neighbor who did all the rotisserie changeovers for Wawa within a few states distance. He did a few a week. He started reaching out for more stores in more states and asked if I wanted to do the signs, much like what you are talking about here. We went over the details for days. In the week or so we hammered out the price, methods and scheduling, they had so many changes, which was fine for them, but it meant rescheduling my end. I decided to turn it down. About 6 or 8 months later, my neighbor went bankrupt and to jail for fraud, as he was advanced over 2 million dollars for his part of the job, but didn't supply the work. Granted, it wasn't entirely his fault, as they kept changing things on him, but he accepted the money in good faith and lost it. Still his responsibility with hisna,e being on the dotted line.

When you're talking 2 or 3,000 locations, the only smart way is to network and find people in sectors to do this work for you. S101 would be a grand way to accomplish this. Doing this on your own will be foolish and probably ruin your marriage, busienss and any future for you.

Now, this could all change as you add in still more information. See how the trickle down works ?? You give a little information at a time, then feed us more little by little. It's frustrating to us, but our livelihood wouldn't depend on it, like yours will.

 

[visual800]

This aint the 80s and you are NOT Def Leppard on a world Tour!

I know on paper this seems to be the chance of a lifetime but allow me to tell you, when the year is over you will be broke and worn out and will not have made $10. I know it has not added up that way but thats how it usually ends up. Trust me. The road will eat you alive and rip your profits to shreds.

IF this were my job I would be burning the phones up finding some installers on the way. Ill be damned if I would leave town and chase this crew. OR I would teach them to put the decals on. Sometimes NOT being involved directly on large stuff is the way to go. You do not have to do it all. You will learn that better as you get older.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I would think long and hard about this, you are basing your schedule on the cabinet installers, Like someone else said, I can't imagine a cabinet installer crew installing 5 locations a day, it's just not going to happen, and if they don't meet their quota, your profit goes down the drain. Whenever we have done similar jobs, there is always time you didn't account for, for example, will the store have to get someone to move a display or skid of something out of your way, the store manager wants to chat your ear off about something, you show up and the store is closed because the staff are sick etc. I've seen it all and it does nothing but kill your profits.

like someone else said, see if you can apply the graphics to the cabinets at the factory, after they are applied, cover them in premask, any decent cabinet installer knows how to install without damaging the cabinets. alternatively, look into being hired as an employee or contractor of the cabinet company, that way you would have your expenses covered and there is no potential to loose your shirt, the pay wouldn't be as good, but there is more security.

 

[Billct2]

I did a quick read through and my two thought are
1. Hold your price...they want you to do it and for every three jobs that go well one will take twice as long given the variables.
2. I wouldn't take on something like this unless I could sub it out or hire an employee to do it. I have an existing client base that would
evaporate if they were neglected.