4x8 Pan Faces

[jman]

Hey everyone,

Doing a estimate on 2 4x8' polycarb pan formed faces installed. Full color digital print on the faces. Signs only about 15 feet up.

I came up with $2350 installed including travel time. It's 20 minutes away so I added in 1 hour of travel and 1 hour of install. (includes taking old faces down and installing new)

Thank you!

 

[Brandon708]

Congratulations

 

[ddarlak]

Is this a hobby or do you plan to make money sometime in the future?

 

[jman]

Is this a hobby or do you plan to make money sometime in the future?

Honestly I don't see how this isn't a good profit. Have about $1200 in mats...that's $1150 for a few hours of work....Super simple if you ask me

 

[ddarlak]

Honestly I don't see how this isn't a good profit. Have about $1200 in mats...that's $1150 for a few hours of work....Super simple if you ask me

I'm in this business to make money, not leave it on the table.

If you were so sure of your price as you suggest in your second post why bother posting the thread to begin with.

I assumed that you were looking for comment on your pricing, I gave one. I believe you left at least 1k on the table, but that's my opinion, something I assumed you were looking for.

Good Job!, you made a lot of money per hour...

 

[jman]

I'm in this business to make money, not leave it on the table.

If you were so sure of your price as you suggest in your second post why bother posting the thread to begin with.

I assumed that you were looking for comment on your pricing, I gave one. I believe you left at least 1k on the table, but that's my opinion, something I assumed you were looking for.

Good Job!, you made a lot of money per hour...

What I don't get it why act like an ******* to someone asking a question? This is why I don't come here because instead of people HELPING they act like assholes with a big ego. Get over yourself. Your logo looks like something from mickey mouse clubhouse.

People like you shy people from asking questions to LEARN. After all isn't that what posting in a forum is for? General talk and learning? Geesh.

If I left money on the table than tell me without being rude about it. How is one to learn if people bash instead of educate? I'm gladly taking a deposit on this job and making $1100 profit. 5% of something is better than 0% of nothing. Materials are covered and so is my time by a long shot. I was just told I was $200 cheaper than the other guy who bid it.

Thank you

 

[ddarlak]

Get over yourself. Your logo looks like something from mickey mouse clubhouse.

I got over myself along time ago, I am simply stating facts here, if your butt gets hurt, oh well, I guess you have more lessons to learn.

If you bid the job with 1 hour of removal and install your foolish, plain and simple. Sure, it might take you 1 hour, but you never quote it that way or you'll be chasing dollars til your dead. Charge what its worth and make some damn money!

Thank You, I was going for a kid-ish cartoony logo, after 19 years of a more serious logo I was looking to go childish and fun

 

[CanuckSigns]

Hey everyone,

Doing a estimate on 2 4x8' polycarb pan formed faces installed. Full color digital print on the faces. Signs only about 15 feet up.

I came up with $2350 installed including travel time. It's 20 minutes away so I added in 1 hour of travel and 1 hour of install. (includes taking old faces down and installing new)

Thank you!

A couple questions:

1. Do you have any experience removing or installing pan faces? You estimate 1 hour to remove and reinstall 2 faces, I think you are going to be surprised.

2. How do you plan to access the faces 15 feet up in the air? You really should use some type of lift, Pan faces aren't light, not to mention trying to wrestle with wind while trying to get the face back in the frame. I assume at your prices though, you are going to have 1 guy working off a ladder, I'm glad i'm not that guy. At the least you can use a tow behind boom lift from home depot, it's about $300 to rent and will make the job much smoother.

 

[eahicks]

WOW. I just quickly calculated about $5000 to do this job. Based on your $1200 material costs. Not sure what my material costs would actually be, but you probably get the point by now.

 

[Gino]

This is the mindset of most people coming into this industry, but don't have a clue about business. Like you said, since this OP opened the can of worms, might as well use him as our subject.


Reading over his profile, he is used to making 18" x 24" signs and decals. He pushes buttons and has some machines to do his work. He has no idea of large projects, so he sees dollar signs, when he thinks he's gonna make a grand extra. He has no insurance figured in, no slop factor, nothing in case anything goes wrong and he's never done this sorta thing before, so he bashes people who are giving him years of experience to help him, but he calls them names. He knows better and shuns experience and know-how. Again, he's never done this, but knows he's only gonna have a few hours in it. Did he allow for packing the truck, the ladders, does he have all the necessary tools, did he obtain a permit, does he have adequate insurance and liability for this kinda work ?? If while up there, the lamps are not lighting, does he know how to test the ballasts or the sockets ?? Does he know how to wire a new one in ?? Does he even have the required lamps and ballasts on the truck or is he gonna just think again, well, I'm making an extra grand, I can afford to go get them and put them in...... Oops, does he know how ??

Today's sign people, coming in...... have little to no business sense and don't know how to prepare for the unknowns, which in the case of like this OP, seems to be just about everything is an unknown to him.

I wish him luck, but with an attitude like his..... he's his own worst enemy. This is almost like the guy wanting to buy printers and has no idea of what he's doing in another thread. This is just getting to be the norm in this place. There's like no one who participates with any knowledge or wants to participate and the people participating is like the blind leading the blind.

 

[jman]

Been swapping out back lit faces for years using scaffolding and ladders. Actually just did 2 5x12 footers with a ladder and another guy. Took us an hour including driving to the site, removing old and installing new. Whomever is getting 5k for a job this simple is nuts.

Not sure why you guys think this is that hard of a task. Drop side piece from cabinet, out with old in with new. Pans go in the same way as back lit flat faces.

Also business insurance is cheap. I've had it for years. 2 mil liability costs $40 a month from State Farm. I pay myNot that serious lol

 

[rossmosh]

Jman, I think you're missing the point of the thread. The market value for the job you're charging $2300 for a job that most would charge $4000. That means you're leaving money on the table. Typically on a job like this you'd mark the material up around 2x. Then you figure in your design & labor at whatever your shop rate is.

What you're missing in your pricing is figuring in downtime and "non-billable" time. What's saving you is my guess is you have very low overhead.

 

[Marlene]

Been swapping out back lit faces for years using scaffolding and ladders. Actually just did 2 5x12 footers with a ladder and another guy. Took us an hour including driving to the site, removing old and installing new. Whomever is getting 5k for a job this simple is nuts.

Not sure why you guys think this is that hard of a task. Drop side piece from cabinet, out with old in with new. Pans go in the same way as back lit flat faces.

Also business insurance is cheap. I've had it for years. 2 mil liability costs $40 a month from State Farm. I pay myNot that serious lol

not sure why you would come onto the site and post your costs if you have been doing this for years. confused by this as are you doing a price check or what?

 

[ActionGraphics]

One very important point that that no one seems to have considered or asked is this. How does location and demographics figure into this? How can any of you give good advice on pricing while failing to realize that doing a job, say, in New York city, vs doing a job, say, in Kansas, is going to work out very differently in terms of cost and profit and all the other factors discussed? Whats worth 5000.00 in one part of the country may be worth 2500.00 in another. Try renting a house in Illinois vs renting the same house in San Diego...

 

[CanuckSigns]

One very important point that that no one seems to have considered or asked is this. How does location and demographics figure into this? How can any of you give good advice on pricing while failing to realize that doing a job, say, in New York city, vs doing a job, say, in Kansas, is going to work out very differently in terms of cost and profit and all the other factors discussed? Whats worth 5000.00 in one part of the country may be worth 2500.00 in another. Try renting a house in Illinois vs renting the same house in San Diego...

While that is true to an extent, cost of living is different all around the country, things like supplies and such are not, a roll of 3m IJ180 costs the same from fellers in new york and kansas, there may be a small difference in labour costs as well, but nothing earth shattering, the real difference between these 2 locations is the perceived value of the job, which you can somewhat overcome by educating and upselling the client.

 

[Gino]

In all fairness, the OP didn't ask for opinions, in-sight or anything else. He just made an empty post about what he's charging. However, when confronted with what almost the rest of the entire country and neighboring people are getting, demographics doesn't enter into it, if he relates his costs to us.

What matters here is not the cost of living in this guy's area, but what he has for a business.

Does he have a shop ??
Does he have paid employees, not under the table ??
Does he have adequate insurance ??
Does he have any overhead ??
Does he use permits ??
Does he do elevation drawings ??
Does he use good materials ??
Does he even have a business license ??

I'm not about scalping the customer, but I sure do wanna make a fair turnaround on my buck. This guy made the statement we're all nuts for getting those prices..... I think he's wrong, but I won't condemn him for being naive or a newbie at this stuff. He said he's done some recently and it only took an hour. Good for him. I can't imagine doing that in under an hour, whether with scaffolding, ladders, cranes or bucket trucks. Once his insurance company finds out what he's doing, his $40 a month insurance will certainly increase to the norm. He's most likely running off of some home owners policy. Business insurance is nowhere that cheap anywhere regardless of demographics.

Between overhead, materials, permits, time unaccounted for and all the little things in-between, not doubling your money is foolish. Like mentioned, he would be better off tripling to quadrupling his out-a-pocket costs.

 

[rossmosh]

While that is true to an extent, cost of living is different all around the country, things like supplies and such are not, a roll of 3m IJ180 costs the same from fellers in new york and kansas, there may be a small difference in labour costs as well, but nothing earth shattering, the real difference between these 2 locations is the perceived value of the job, which you can somewhat overcome by educating and upselling the client.

Cost of Living Comparison: compare Brooklyn, New York to Topeka, Kansas

"A salary of $80,000 in Brooklyn, New York could decrease to $34,499 in Topeka, Kansas"
Topeka is 57% cheaper than Brooklyn.
Housing is the biggest factor in the cost of living difference.
Housing is 85% cheaper in Topeka.

Cost of living plays a huge role in things. Big companies that have offices in NYC and offices in Dallas don't pay their employees the same. The Dallas employee will absolutely get paid less despite doing essentially the same job. Same thing applies to this industry. You have to take cost of living/cost of doing business into consideration. If you don't, you're just further screwing up the market.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Cost of Living Comparison: compare Brooklyn, New York to Topeka, Kansas

"A salary of $80,000 in Brooklyn, New York could decrease to $34,499 in Topeka, Kansas"
Topeka is 57% cheaper than Brooklyn.
Housing is the biggest factor in the cost of living difference.
Housing is 85% cheaper in Topeka.

Cost of living plays a huge role in things. Big companies that have offices in NYC and offices in Dallas don't pay their employees the same. The Dallas employee will absolutely get paid less despite doing essentially the same job. Same thing applies to this industry. You have to take cost of living/cost of doing business into consideration. If you don't, you're just further screwing up the market.

in this scenerio, the cost of living wouldn't make a big difference, he only accounted for 2 hours ( 1 hour travel and 1 hour install), so 2 hours of labour is going to be a drop in the bucket in this example, at most a $50 dollar difference.

 

[Gino]

Why pick about the most expensive place in the country and compare it to a rural area ?? That doesn't sound fair, either.


There is no area in more poverty and/or underpaid anything than right here in my town of Reading, PA. Yet, we have no problem doing well at a sensible cost and make a nice living for us and our employees. I get prices people in New York get and I won't work for peanuts, unless I chose to do so.

This discussion is not at all about the OP or his sign anymore. May I suggest to those interested, to start a thread, if so concerned about what everyone makes, charges and can live with..... BUT do it in a secure category.

 

[rossmosh]

in this scenerio, the cost of living wouldn't make a big difference, he only accounted for 2 hours ( 1 hour travel and 1 hour install), so 2 hours of labour is going to be a drop in the bucket in this example, at most a $50 dollar difference.

If he needed to make $75k a year to live a working class lifestyle, he'd be forced to charge the "right amount". But low cost of living and I assume a low cost of business gives him the flexibility to be under market value and still make some money.

Why pick about the most expensive place in the country and compare it to a rural area ?? That doesn't sound fair, either.

There is no area in more poverty and/or underpaid anything than right here in my town of Reading, PA. Yet, we have no problem doing well at a sensible cost and make a nice living for us and our employees. I get prices people in New York get and I won't work for peanuts, unless I chose to do so.

This discussion is not at all about the OP or his sign anymore. May I suggest to those interested, to start a thread, if so concerned about what everyone makes, charges and can live with..... BUT do it in a secure category.

I believe we've discussed this more than once. Take your shop and move it to a suburb of Philly and I guarantee you'll see my point.

 

[printhog]

Pan formed faces with full color translucent digital print? Only the most pricey sign possible and you're definitely giving it away.. first - to get proper color depth at night you'll need to print two layers, so a professional shop would have 128 sq ft of print, not 64 as youre likely assuming. Add 2 hrs each for wet on wet complex application to get image alignment.. plus crane time to install safely.. unless you want to risk dropping one or eating it yourself.. no less than $600 install. So you should be $1250 for pan faces, $1250 at cheapo minimum for imaging (that's $10psf - most electric shops charge $20 psf) and $400 for that complex application, and $180 mileage and time to supervise the crane installing ... and now youre still well below what a real sign business would charge.. somewhere between $3100 and $4400 for these is market rate for professional work on 3M or similar materials.

History - Ive been in the wholesale trade for 40 years. I run a 4'x8' thermoformer, full cnc and grand format.. lots of these signs in my past.. your proposed price is so low you wont stay in business.. Sign Pricing | SignCraft for some basics and http://www.grimco.com/Catalog/Products/MiniSignContractorsPricingGuide for more complex stuff..

 

[ddarlak]

Anyone who has been in business for any decent amount of time knows that this price doesn't cut the mustard no matter where you live. You simply don't "double" your money on two 4x8 digitally printed pan faces installed - it's a rookie move. hopefully he can learn and do better. I cracked him hard with the hobby comment because it sounded like he had no idea how much he was giving away.

OP, your hurting the entire sign industry by leaving money on the table, hence the majority of people agreeing your doing it too cheap.

I just don't believe the "other guy" was $200 more, sounds like apples to oranges to me.

you can take this advice and become a better business person or do what you want and chase money the rest of your life...