A Concern...Need your input.

[skyhigh]

I don't know how often you guys run into this.....

I have 2 good (frequent) customers that apply all their own vehicle lettering, and vinyl for other miscellaneous projects. OK no problem....its not rocket science. The one PITA is, there are the occasional "screw-ups", and ifs its nothing "major", then I just redo for nothing.

Now, the most recent concern.....
The one customer decided he wanted to redo all their current property signs. Their current signs are made from "duraply" (total of 5 signs 3' x 7' in size). All the signs have large, reverse weeded panels, which I have my doubts they will be able to apply without any problems. But this isn't my major conern!!!

My major concern is their choice of materials. Their substrate of choice is fiberglass sheets (white FRP.....guessing that stands for fiberglass reinforced panel)... fiberglass is their business.

My one and only experience with lettering on fiberglass goes back almost 20 years. Other than a vinyl manufacturers defective product, this is the only application that I've had a failure on. The vinyl peeled after a year. My guess (at the time), was an expansion/contraction issue that didn't match with the vinyl used. Needless to say, I never used a fiberglass sheet again.

Anyone have some recent experience with application onto fiberglass?
Should I tell the customer, this isn't recommended?

 

[ova]

All U-Haul trucks are FRP on the boxes. They last a long time.

Seems if there are any issuses, it will be during the installs. I would think if you supply the correct vinyl and give them some kind of directions for applying, you should be covered.

Dave

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I don't know how often you guys run into this.....

I have 2 good (frequent) customers that apply all their own vehicle lettering, and vinyl for other miscellaneous projects. OK no problem....its not rocket science. The one PITA is, there are the occasional "screw-ups", and ifs its nothing "major", then I just redo for nothing.

Now, the most recent concern.....
The one customer decided he wanted to redo all their current property signs. Their current signs are made from "duraply" (total of 5 signs 3' x 7' in size). All the signs have large, reverse weeded panels, which I have my doubts they will be able to apply without any problems. But this isn't my major conern!!!

My major concern is their choice of materials. Their substrate of choice is fiberglass sheets (white FRP.....guessing that stands for fiberglass reinforced panel)... fiberglass is their business.

My one and only experience with lettering on fiberglass goes back almost 20 years. Other than a vinyl manufacturers defective product, this is the only application that I've had a failure on. The vinyl peeled after a year. My guess (at the time), was an expansion/contraction issue that didn't match with the vinyl used. Needless to say, I never used a fiberglass sheet again.

Anyone have some recent experience with application onto fiberglass?
Should I tell the customer, this isn't recommended?

The only experience that I have with FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic in the sublimation world) is with sublimation. Can't help with the vinyl end of it, although I would be surprised that there isn't some vinyl out there that would work with fiberglass.

 

[skyhigh]

if you supply the correct vinyl

The correct vinyl??? Please elaborate.....anyone?
Is there a special vinyl solely recommended for fiberglass applications?????

and give them some kind of directions for applying

Given the nature of my post, I am concerned that they are not wasting their time and money, albeit I'm done giving customers directions as to how to circumvent part of my business.

I know...what a harda$$

For larger projects, I use to print a layout with measurements, and also put registration marks (cut vinyl) for lining up multiple colors. hahaha, here's a picture of the layout, and I hope you have a tape measure.

 

[skyhigh]

All U-Haul trucks are FRP on the boxes. They last a long time.


Dave

good point Dave!!
I guess "thickness" would play a major factor (expansion/contraction issue), and also....the U-Haul panels, I'm guessing, are painted from the manufacturer???? I've never lettered one of the box trucks straight from the dealership. Again, assuming its the same product.

My one and only fiberglass panel used 20 years ago, was an 1/8" (maybe thinner....don't remember). So I'm sticking with the expansion problem. Definitely my fault.

thanks for the input Dave.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Never had any problems with FRP. Always used premium cast 3M/Gerber or Arlon

 

[skyhigh]

I used cast Oracal & cast Arlon for the cut vinyl, and 3m 180c for the prints (nothing is layered).

I'm an Oracal fan, but not their blue's.....thus the Arlon.

 

[ova]

I think FRP actually stands for Fiberglass reinforced plywood. It's a marine grade plywood with a skim coat of fiberglass one or both sides.



Did you not have enough or too much coffee this morning?

Dave

 

[J Hill Designs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

 

[HulkSmash]

I don't know how often you guys run into this.....

I have 2 good (frequent) customers that apply all their own vehicle lettering, and vinyl for other miscellaneous projects. OK no problem....its not rocket science. The one PITA is, there are the occasional "screw-ups", and ifs its nothing "major", then I just redo for nothing.

Now, the most recent concern.....
The one customer decided he wanted to redo all their current property signs. Their current signs are made from "duraply" (total of 5 signs 3' x 7' in size). All the signs have large, reverse weeded panels, which I have my doubts they will be able to apply without any problems. But this isn't my major conern!!!

My major concern is their choice of materials. Their substrate of choice is fiberglass sheets (white FRP.....guessing that stands for fiberglass reinforced panel)... fiberglass is their business.

My one and only experience with lettering on fiberglass goes back almost 20 years. Other than a vinyl manufacturers defective product, this is the only application that I've had a failure on. The vinyl peeled after a year. My guess (at the time), was an expansion/contraction issue that didn't match with the vinyl used. Needless to say, I never used a fiberglass sheet again.

Anyone have some recent experience with application onto fiberglass?
Should I tell the customer, this isn't recommended?

FYI, the Uhaul trucks aren't 100% fiberglass. They integrate some wood. It uses a polymer that typically has some sort of epoxy in it. On a different note. 99% of RV's we've done ARE fiberglass.. no issues. just be sure to use Cast Vinyl. Same with boats. Most of the hulls are fiberglass. You shouldn't have an issue doing this job.

Now if it is indeed the actual textured fiberglass then you would have an issue here. The only thing i've seen successfully stick to that stuff is the arlon 8000 series, and if that's the case you'll have to print.

 

[skyhigh]

FYI, the Uhaul trucks aren't 100% fiberglass. They integrate some wood. It uses a polymer that typically has some sort of epoxy in it. On a different note. 99% of RV's we've done ARE fiberglass.. no issues. just be sure to use Cast Vinyl. Same with boats. Most of the hulls are fiberglass. You shouldn't have an issue doing this job.

Now if it is indeed the actual textured fiberglass then you would have an issue here. The only thing i've seen successfully stick to that stuff is the arlon 8000 series, and if that's the case you'll have to print.

The only thing I know for sure....its NOT the textured stuff.

As for boats and such, now we are talking "gel coat" (and not trying to indicate I know anything about gel coat)....I'm sure these panels don't have that type of surface...plus the boats would be thicker....and formed for strength vs a flat panel....ect. However the rv panels are thin

Thanks for the input Coloroad.....by the way, speaking about boats.....I'm still waiting on that invite.




ova..... I haven't had my usual second pot by now. Thats the problem.

 

[Gino]

As Color mentioned, most fiberglass surfaces should work fine, today. I too, had some failures from years ago, but the fiberglass seemed different as far as texture. I just thought the technology got better with both the fiberglass and the vinyl as time moved forward. Perhaps not knowing that much about fiberglass and the various types could be the real culprit. I remember being told something about fiberglass..... not exactly out-gassing, but something similar to this process which prevents many things from working together. Something about certain gels being used, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[JoySigns]

When a customer if mine wants to apply there own graphics, they are responsible for any screw ups and I will not give them any kind of warranty. Period. I tell them "if I'm applying and I mess up I replace it, if you mess it up you will have to pay for the reordered piece." There are so many factors out of your control when they are self applying to their own substrate. Why should you have research and guarantee their substrate?

 

[HulkSmash]

The only thing I know for sure....its NOT the textured stuff.

As for boats and such, now we are talking "gel coat" (and not trying to indicate I know anything about gel coat)....I'm sure these panels don't have that type of surface...plus the boats would be thicker....and formed for strength vs a flat panel....ect. However the rv panels are thin

Thanks for the input Coloroad.....by the way, speaking about boats.....I'm still waiting on that invite.




ova..... I haven't had my usual second pot by now. Thats the problem.

I've literally done wraps on vehicles that are ground right down the fiberglass/aluminum with no issues. as for the invite... I didn't even make it out to Bermuda this summer.. we've been busy...

 

[signage]

The problem you may have had could have been from the release agent sprayed to the forms so that the fiberglass doesn't stick. From what I have been told that release agent is hard to get off without sanding.

 

[Suz]

Hi Sky,
I'm sure you've figured out a solution by now, but for what it is worth, here's my experience with something similar:

About a year ago, I had a regular customer ask if I could apply vinyl graphics (cad cut and digitally printed) to 32 fairly large sign panels, using their substrate. I have to say, I'm really glad they did not ask me to show them how to apply it, as this was a job I had to experiment with since it was a material I'd never added signage to before. Substrate/panels were about 3'x8' each, they were Corrugated Carbon Fiber panel scraps from their aircraft parts manufacturing business. Pretty big panels, but they were at least light weight.

So, I thought I'd give it a try. I started by experimenting with one panel. I noticed it was pretty dirty, seemed to have some oily finish on it from the manufacturing process. So, I started by cleaning it off with alcohol. That was a stinky mess and I could not get the vinyl graphics to stick to the surface. Failure! But I wasn't ready to give up yet.

So, I found this little sample kit of Rapid-Tac products in the shop and decided to give that a whirl. Worked like a champ! After prepping the surface, my vinyls stuck to it with no issues, but only after using the Rapidtac products. This is the process I used:

1 - Cleaned surface with Rapidprep
2 - Then used Rapidtac to remove residue from cleaning
3 - Dry applied the graphics. Hinged from center
4 - Polished with Rapid Clear when done, which made the carbon fiber panels look far better than they looked before!

Over a year later, there are no issues with any of the 32 panels that I did.

This is carbon fiber (corrugated), not fiberglass. However, it sure feels a lot like fiberglass. Hope that helps!

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks for the Rapid Prep suggestion Suz. I will have to give it a try in the future. A friend of mine started using it, and has been boasting how well it works. Like you, I have always been an "alcohol" 91% prep guy. (wonder why the rapid prep works so well?)

As for this job, I expressed my concerns to the customer. He said they would accept any responsibility.

Thanks again.

 

[Suz]

Sky,

I guess the Rapid prep guy is the only one who knows the secret. I just haven't found anything that works quite as well and I have to say I like all (5) of the products he has that I have tried. He must be a chemist too!

 

[skyhigh]

Yeah, ole Rodger used to be a merchant member here. I liked the guy myself, but he overwhelmed the board with his advertising, which made him kinda unpopular with a few.

He didn't bother me, and to be honest, I'd rather read his ads than some of the babyish feuds that go on here.

 

[Suz]

Sky,
I've read some past posts about him, and some of the posts made by him too. I have to say the proof is in the pudding!!!! His products just work, so why get your pants in a bunch. LOL. Not to offend anyone, don't remember who said what, just that there were quite a few who didn't like him for whatever reason. But most of us know his product, so his marketing was successful.
Have a great day!
Sue

 

[J Hill Designs]

hmmm 10% Coconut Imidazoline Salt