A ranting lunatic on the value of design.

[Jon Aston]

Hey peeps.

As many of you already know, I don't make signs and I couldn't design my way out of a wet paper bag.

But having worked with sign companies and in the sign industry for my entire career, I've obviously become afflicted with some kind of passion (or some form of madness) for the sign business. Some of what fuels that passion is a simple, curious interest in what works and what doesn't... and why. I look at signs all the time and wonder that (See? Madness.).

My family (who don't share my passion) love me enough to at least indulge me as I launch into the occasional rant...

"Who the hell made that sign?! The lettering is too damned small to read from the highway! And look at the readerboard underneath! Who is going to read a paragraph of text, even if they could?! That poor guy probably wasted 15 grand on that sign - and he's probably happy with it - even though it's slowly putting him out of business!".

Rants are fun, but clearly there is a direct correlation between knowledgeable, skilled design... and the value you create for your customers. There's also a direct correlation between the value you create for customers... and the amount of money you get to charge for your work. Give them signs that improve their business in measurable ways, post results-oriented testimonials or case studies on your website... and raise your prices.

As I drive around, ranting, I can't help but wonder why more sign shop owners don't invest more in improving their design chops - on an ongoing basis.

So what's your excuse?

 

[Jon Aston]

PS - Now you know why I post all of those design articles and tutorials in the Tips & Tricks forum for Premium Members.

 

[Patrick46]

So what's your excuse?

lazyness....'cause that's the way I roll

 

[SignManiac]

Some get it, most don't.

 

[speedmedia]

I see mostly from working at other shops and competing with other shops many just don't take into consideration the importance of design and composition. It really lacks that.

All shops I have been employed at previously looked at graphic designers like they could get their nephew to do it. It just wasn't looked at as an important job. I don't really know how to pinpoint it. This is just my experience.

I guess the way I see it is to have a successful project it must start with a successful design whether it is a channel letter sign or a banner.

Thanks,
Kurt

 

[Replicator]

This spring I plan on launching into my "I ain't gonna be a lazy f*_k mode"

and really change the way people see our business and what we offer them when they use us over the competition . . .

 

[Jon Aston]

This spring I plan on launching into my "I ain't gonna be a lazy f*_k mode"

and really change the way people see our business and what we offer them when they use us over the competition . . .

Why wait until spring? Get it done before business picks up and you have the "Now, I'm too busy" excuse. I'm not sayin'. I'm just sayin'.

 

[signgal]

I just spent a good part of the day, yesterday lecturing my husband about how we aren't gonna lower our price to get a job he bid because they have to pay for my superior design ability, our impeccable service and the fact that we're now one of the oldest sign shops in the county! We started out from day one designing a "better" sign, even though corporate spouted off repeatedly about us not needing any experience in design or production... *shakes head* It's such crap! Fortunately, I came from the marketing/advertising world and didn't accept any of that and fired the "graphic designer" working for us, creating monstrosities which no one could read or call effective signage and got knowledge myself! Not tooting my horn, just sayin'... sometimes we don't have enough faith in our own abilities to invest in them and maybe we should. Thanks, Jon! We can all use a reminder!

 

[mark in tx]

I'm friends with many of the other shops around here, and something I see quite often, and I bite my tongue about, is that some of the owners just don't seem to appreciate their graphics people.
I've watched them yell about "taking too much time", "Why are you screwing around with different fonts?", "I like the work that other people do", etc...

Some seem to have the mentality that graphics production is the same as weeding and taping, sewing, pulling screens, etc...

Not exactly the way to get the best work out of an artist, and contributes to a high turn over with graphic artists.

It seems to be most common in the shops that don't charge fees for art.

 

[bob]

I...
It seems to be most common in the shops that don't charge fees for art.

This shop doesn't. It's just part of producing whatever it is I'm producing. I do signs and the design and layout of a sign is just as much a part of the process as lettering the board. Some take longer than others, some are done in a flash. It all evens out and it allows me a consistent comprehensible pricing model.

I'm forever amused at those that tortuously rationalize their need to charge for design. I thinks it's far more to feed their tenuous and trembling egos than anything else. From the look of the vast majority of work displayed in these waters, the most of you have no business charging for whatever it is you call 'design'. They're just layouts. What was once done with a stick of charcoal on the substrate or a roughed in pounce pattern, is now done with computers. Functionally identical processes.

Then, of course, there's the time-worn rationalization generally expressed as "Leaving money on the table". I get exactly what I want for my stuff or I don't do it. Since I get what I want, it follows as the night unto the day that there's nothing left on the table that I want.

 

[weaselboogie]

Bob, what's your policy on changes/additions? I have to remind people of where they're at on design time if it's starting to turn into 40 knitpicking changes. I see where you're at with simple layouts... I don't charge for that either, but if it's going to require lots of design time, I charge for it.

 

[bob]

Bob, what's your policy on changes/additions? I have to remind people of where they're at on design time if it's starting to turn into 40 knitpicking changes. I see where you're at with simple layouts... I don't charge for that either, but if it's going to require lots of design time, I charge for it.

It's all part of the job. For the 1 time there's a plethora of, as you say. nitpicking changes there's 100's of jobs that have none. I just take it in stride. It all evens out in the end.

As far as I can tell there are only simple layouts. for 99.9999% of the work I do there's some text and, more often than not, some decoration. If it's printed there's often a background image and may be some effect or another. None of it is complex, none of it is rocket surgery, none of it takes anything resembling a considerable amount of time. It's all simply part of the job. I don't worry a bit about the .00001% that doesn't fit my model. I just do it as well, should it happen along.

 

[kazoosigns]

From what I've witnessed here (I deal with salespersons who deal with the clients, either in person or on the phone, email, etc..), I believe a lot of it is our sales staff doesn't try and explain the benefit of a well-designed sign.

Case in point: we had an upstart company bring us a 3 panel tradeshow booth that their designer (who I found out was the owner's brother) created. It was busy, with a lot of text sitting 4-5" above the ground, where you'd never read it. As per my usual routine, I gave them that design and then one that I designed myself, which basically cleaned it up and made it a much more cohesive unit.

The salesperson didn't even show them my design, because he was too afraid that they wouldn't like it and then take their money elsewhere. If he'd taken five minutes to show them a different layout, they could've had a better, stronger design for their tradeshow booth. Then again, they could've just said "Thanks, but we'd rather stick with our design," which at that point would've been okay because we would have offered our experience already.

 

[Rodi]

Interesting, I'm a production person, and my wife is starting her own business. I designed her logo and created BCs and menu and all kinds of stuff for marketing. I bet it looks better than most places art. However, it could be much better and I am seriously thinking of scrapping it all and getting a real designer in for the whole shooting match. Being a knowledgeable client, I will of course give my input, but not tie the designers hands.

Thanks for posting this Jon.

 

[Marlene]

one thing that I have noticed since the economy tanked is there are a lot more nasty looking, over done signs out there. there a many factors that might be to blame for that.

#1 lowest bidder wins the job

#2 good sign company needs the money so says "sure" to customer ideas
for a bad sign

#3 goes back to #1 as more people who have lost their jobs have opened
sign shops so there is a lot of no-talent out there making signs


just recently, we had a customer open a new business. this business is a franchise and has an existing logo which is horrid and looks like it was designed by a 5th grader. everything about the logo is so wrong. the font, the graphic, everything is horrid. we made the signs and they look horrid. so what do you when at a corporate level, trash is being produced? do you turn the job down because it is so nasty looking it should be set on fire? I have seen recently a couple of corporate, national companies with logos so bad I wanted to cringe.

 

[Rodi]

Make money, deny you ever did the job! Keep it out of your portfolio.

 

[signgal]

one thing that I have noticed since the economy tanked is there are a lot more nasty looking, over done signs out there. there a many factors that might be to blame for that.

#1 lowest bidder wins the job

#2 good sign company needs the money so says "sure" to customer ideas
for a bad sign

#3 goes back to #1 as more people who have lost their jobs have opened
sign shops so there is a lot of no-talent out there making signs


just recently, we had a customer open a new business. this business is a franchise and has an existing logo which is horrid and looks like it was designed by a 5th grader. everything about the logo is so wrong. the font, the graphic, everything is horrid. we made the signs and they look horrid. so what do you when at a corporate level, trash is being produced? do you turn the job down because it is so nasty looking it should be set on fire? I have seen recently a couple of corporate, national companies with logos so bad I wanted to cringe.

I try to get them to put the emphasis on what they do, rather than the logo and make that small on the sign. We've had a couple of those too. Most recently, a LARGE decorating franchise "updated" their logo, apparently corp speak for "uglied it up!" It's horrendous and an absolutely awful reflection on the company. My advice to my long time client and friend... emphasis on you and your skill/trade!

 

[Marlene]

I try to get them to put the emphasis on what they do, rather than the logo and make that small on the sign.

when possible. I wish I could post the logo so you could see it as it is one that is so bad it would be flamed to a crisp if posted here on the site. since we're in an open forum, I don't feel right about posting it.

 

[Lau Designs]

I have to agree that many people out there think that they can just sit down and design sign with no knoledge of design. Well I must say that it's not impossible but many people get it wrong. They either over do it with the fancyness of the font or too many colors going on. And today with the ability to print anything you want the backgrounds get busy very fast in many cases. And man do they need a course on color and size proportion. But anyhow the people who have it in there mind that there design is superrior and don't want any input usually end up with the worst looking sign.
Having gone through a certificate program in graphic design it's amazing how open minded you have to be. Every design gets cretiqued by the class and if your closed minded man does it suck to be in design. But I love being cretiqued because there is so much to be gained from it. Everyone looks at things differently and processes things differently so it's great to get another prospective. I am always asking be it my wife or a friend to look at my work before I put a stamp of approval on it. It seems to have worked for me very well. You need people who can give it to you straight and be honest. I'd rather get everyone to tell me somthing that they would consider changing instead of everyone saying how great it is and trying not to hurt my feeling. Truth is if you want to be a good designer you need to have an open mind and thick skin.

"The mind is like a parachute it works best when open"

 

[Mikeifg]

I love the clipart signshops out there. Now that takes talent. Their customers think they designed it. We use them (Clip art) from time to time but I'd rather come up with something custom anyday.