Welcome To Signs101.com: Largest Forum for Signmaking Professionals

Signs101.com: Largest Forum for Signmaking Professionals is the LARGEST online community & discussion forum for professional sign-makers and graphic designers.

 


  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Advice Needed, Never Done THis Before

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by bob, Jan 21, 2017.

  1. bob

    bob Major Contributor

    5,156
    266
    83
    Nov 4, 2005
    earth
    I have a cut-out of many pieces cut from 6mm expanded PVC in two colors. This is some unknown being's clip-art creation, certainly not mine. I'm just implementing it.

    wall.jpg

    The thing is 60"wide and ~32" high. It's going to be applied to an interior finished drywall with VHB tape. I've stuck lots of stuff to wall before but never anything with this many pieces.

    I thought that I'd print and cut the entire image on a chunk of PhotoTex, put it on the wall, stick the cut-out pieces in their places, and remove the PhotoTex. I printed and cut the image, in two pieces, but the I got to wondering just how I was going to get the two pieces of PhotoTex on the wall. If I use application tape the adhesive in the app tape appears to be more aggressive than the adhesive in the PhotoTex. This would not make for a fun installation.

    I absolutely do not want to use a pounce pattern, for many really good reasons, I thought of printing the image on paper, tape it to the wall, and using a small awl indent various cardinal points for each of the pieces of the cut-out, then remove the paper and apply the pieces to those indents. Not particularly satisfying nor as accurate a method as I need.

    So here I am, asking for a solution. I like the PhotoTex method if I could figure out a way to get it on the wall. Failing than I'm open to any and all suggestions.
     
  2. HDvinyl

    HDvinyl Beyond Most

    2,455
    301
    83
    Nov 20, 2008
    Big Brother Knows.
    I've not tried it, but Phototex claims the material itself can also be used as a transfer tape for printed Phototex.
     
  3. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

    6,732
    372
    83
    Mar 12, 2005
    New England
    We've done a few with a paper pattern. Instead of punching with an awl we cut out a little triangle where each corner is ahead of time. Tape the pattern in place and lightly draw the corners in with a pencil.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. sardocs

    sardocs Active Member

    537
    75
    28
    Jun 17, 2005
    pender harbour bc
    I've done some school logos cut out from thick sintra where we glued the individual coloured pieces to a contour cut full white background panel made from much thinner sintra. Once it was up on the wall the spaces between the coloured bits were almost indistinguishable.
     
  5. visual800

    visual800 Very Active Member

    3,544
    150
    63
    Aug 4, 2010
    montgomery, alabama
    this right here, all day long all the time
     
  6. GB2

    GB2 Very Active Member

    1,808
    52
    48
    Nov 15, 2005
    Connecticut, USA
    If I'm seeing this correctly, you are going to mount the red and black pieces on the wall, which is represented by the white. I would probably be inclined to rout a template out of coroplast, tape it to the wall and drop the pieces in place. If you don't have that capability, then I would pen plot the pattern on paper and, by hand, cut out the parts that are black in my image. Then tape that to the wall, line up the pieces, stick them in the open areas that you cut out of the paper template, remove the paper and stick any additional areas as needed.
    MCG Template.jpg
     
  7. Gino

    Gino Major Contributor

    30,165
    1,277
    113
    Jun 7, 2006
    PA
    I know you said you didn't want to use pounce patterns, but that's all we use and we do as many as 300 individual pieces on finished interior walls several times a year. Clean up is a breeze and it's usually white walls, which shows any imperfections. The other method is good, too, but seems more time consuming and rtedious.
     
  8. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

    2,067
    1,084
    113
    Dec 9, 2015
    buffalo ny
    bob, I would also use a pen plot pattern but before hanging it on the wall get yourself a graphite stick (medium) and rub on the back at places that are critical like top peaks of mountains and bottom where a level may be needed. Mount the paper pattern and take a pencil and mark where the places you put the carbon. It will just leave a small mark on the wall like carbon paper, where you need to line up your pieces. Kind of like your awl method but with no holes in the wall that maybe seen later. The other methods suggested are also workable and good and I do not like the pounce on the wall either, to much chance of making a mess which you want to avoid.
    After you get the feel where you are putting things you should be able to "eyeball" all the rest of the small pieces by relying on your pattern for reference. If you do have marks on the wall from the graphite a pink pearl or kneaded eraser can be used to remove marks.
     
  9. Bly

    Bly Very Active Member

    2,559
    192
    63
    Mar 9, 2004
    Sydney
    I used to do a lot of lasercut office reception logos and used low tack spray mask for a template.
    Offset the path 1 or 2mm & make some horizontal cuts through so it's easier to weed out afterwards.
     
  10. tbullo

    tbullo Superunknown

    327
    26
    28
    Apr 5, 2012
    VA
    I put the VHB tape on the letters. I then stick these letters onto a clear liner (like 8518 liner) that is over top of my pattern. Then I transfer tape them in place. Go to job site and line up on wall like vinyl. Tape top and pull liner out from behind and stick to wall. Pic below is after liner was pulled.
    These letters were 1/2'' pvc with brushed metal face.​
    All the work is done in the shop. You get to the job and if the customer knows exactly where they want it, you are done in minutes and the customer is amazed. I've been doing it like this for years.
    [​IMG] Attached Thumbnails[​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Bubba06

    Bubba06 Just Somebody

    258
    65
    28
    Feb 13, 2005
    Manning SC
    Get your hands on an overhead projector.
     
  12. Bubba06

    Bubba06 Just Somebody

    258
    65
    28
    Feb 13, 2005
    Manning SC
    projector.jpg
    Like this
     
  13. signbrad

    signbrad Member

    298
    119
    43
    Jun 15, 2014
    Kansas City
    I have used many of these methods, too.

    Most of the installers at my place use Gerber mask with voids cut where the letters are to be placed. Often, for a row of letters, the mask is just a strip with voids showing only the bottom halves of the letters.

    I like pounce patterns. The problem with a pounce pattern is in removing the marks when you're done. A couple of tips: never use carpenter's chalks. Always use real charcoal powder. Rub lightly to transfer the charcoal. When you are done, never try to rub the marks. Use a large commercial feather duster instead. The kind with real feathers.

    But tbullo's method is very slick. It's great for lots of small cutout letters, especially 6mm. I have also double and even triple-layered the transfer tape to stiffen it and make it a little less floppy.


    Brad in Kansas City
     
  14. printhog

    printhog Member

    371
    159
    43
    Dec 15, 2010
    california
    I quit using patterns years back on small stuff that isn't offset from the wall.. Now I cut the logo in color in cast vinyl. Apply to wall or sign. Use vhb to apply CNC letters over it. Better positioning, nice look, no mess, saves a ton of labor. Also creates a more aggressive bond to wall.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. rossmosh

    rossmosh Member

    461
    66
    28
    Oct 9, 2014
    New Jersey
    Color me simple but I just use the PVC/Sintra as my template. Use a 1/16" bit and it makes it pretty damn accurate.
     
  16. printhog

    printhog Member

    371
    159
    43
    Dec 15, 2010
    california
    If you cover the PVC with app tape before you route it, put it face down on the router and mirror cut just to the tape not thru, it's ready to go. Exception being the second color..
     
  17. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

    2,067
    1,084
    113
    Dec 9, 2015
    buffalo ny
    All well and good until you run into that painted wall that vinyl does not stick to and your CNC letters on on the floor the next day.
     
  18. printhog

    printhog Member

    371
    159
    43
    Dec 15, 2010
    california
    3M cast vinyl, 3M vhb and 3M mounting films have the same adhesive.. just different thicknesses. If its got a questionable paint, we either repaint the wall, or use traditional stud mount. Having done hundreds this way i've never had a failure. But I'm sure putting a 3.5 mil calendered crap in there would likely result in your prediction.
     
  19. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

    2,067
    1,084
    113
    Dec 9, 2015
    buffalo ny
    3MVHB tapes which are plasticiser resist are 4926,4936,4945,4941,4946 and 4956 The 4941 states the adhesive is acrylic With 3M7125 they say the adhesive is clear pressure sensitive medium tack, all information taken from a 3M Quick Reference Guide. Mounting films, pressure sensitive, and VHB tapes all have different adhesive descriptions from A-10 to R-60 about #13 total in the guide I reffered to. I have seen cast and calendered "crap" fail on some painted walls,( lot of people post on here daily of their failings to get vinyl to stick and many give different ideas suggested to them to help) but to repaint an entire wall just to use that method you stated using the cut out letters is a lot of extra work. Hopefully you will never have a fail and my prediction will not happen to you.
     
  20. printhog

    printhog Member

    371
    159
    43
    Dec 15, 2010
    california
    @Johnny Best You're correct in that there's a lot of vhb tapes and adhesives.. many have no bearing in the sign trade.. Which ones do you use?...you seem versed in them ..

    We use either 468MP or 9473 over 3M 7725, and my 3M adhesives rep and RS Hughes have said that's a combo that matches the necessary performance standards.. remember, we're adhering vinyl to wall (7725) then pvc to vinyl (9473 or 468MP). Havent had any failures over years. In fact removal can be taxing.

    As for the painting - We recommend stud mount if the surface wont pass the 3M wall graphics test, and if they dont want to pay stud mount prices, then we or they paint the wall to work.

    As for 3M 468MP holding pvc over 7725 vinyl on painted metal, this 30"'x72"' sign was assembled in about 45 minutes, using cnc pvc adhered over plotted vinyls, and is still in service 10 years later south facing exterior california sierra nevadas. mounting is by client.

    pictures to sort 016.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page

 


Loading...