Avery 1360 overlam

[niksagkram]

Hi all. Just wondering if this is a unique issue I'm having, or has someone else had the same experience. I have a Seal 54Base with heated roller. It's about 5 years old, maybe 6. I commonly use Arlon DPF6000XRP to print on and lam with Arlon 3220, (both 54") with no issues whatsoever. However, I have recently started using Avery MPI1005 to print on, because our install department likes the way in lays down on vehicles. I laminate it with Avery DOL 1360. Here's the issue. No matter what pressure I have the rollers at, or speed I feed, every so often I get line of bubbles in the lam. This NEVER happens with the Arlon vinyl/lam. (They are both a 2mil cast vinyl) At first I thought it might be static, so I added an anti-static cord across the path of the lam on the feed side, and even wiped the vinyl with a slightly dampened cloth as I fed it through, and this seemed to help, for a while, but now I have the same issue, no matter what I try to do. If I take the Avery out and put the Arlon in, no problem whatsoever! Put the Avery back in, and voila! bubbles galore! I took some pics to show what I mean. While taking the pics I noticed that most of the bubbled area runs down the centre of the material. I ran the exact same job, using the Arlon combo, and had no issues. We really want to keep using the Avery for vehicle wraps and larger decals, but if this continues to be an issue, we may have to re-evaluate.

Any ideas/suggestions?



Thanks,
Mark

Quick note. After I posted this I decided I am going to re-print the job on Avery MPI1005 and laminate with Arlon 3220, see if the same thing happens with the mixed brands.

Mark

 

[HulkSmash]

It's a pressure issue 100%. Needs to be clamped lower.

 

[niksagkram]

It's a pressure issue 100%. Needs to be clamped lower.

Thanks, but like I said in my post, no matter what pressure I have the rollers at, this happens. I even have had it so high that the alarm beeps at me.

Mark

 

[Gino]

You have a few ways to go.

• Stop using Avery
• Continue using Arlon
• Talk your crew into using Arlon
• Let your crew contradict your decision
• Possibly your rollers are ever-so-slightly warped and the Avery is more sensitive to it. Therefore replacement rollers or a new machine. ))

 

[niksagkram]

You have a few ways to go.

• Stop using Avery
• Continue using Arlon
• Talk your crew into using Arlon
• Let your crew contradict your decision
• Possibly your rollers are ever-so-slightly warped and the Avery is more sensitive to it. Therefore replacement rollers or a new machine. ))

All viable options! especially the first 4! lol. Before I get that drastic though, I will try an Avery vinyl, Arlon lam combo, & see what happens. Nothing to lose.

Mark

 

[Kwiksigns]

you could also try 1060 lam. its a little thicker. 1360 is a little over 1 mil.

 

[niksagkram]

Just had a thought while reading through some old posts on this forum. I have the heat turned on all the time. Is this the right way to go, or should I be cold laminating the Avery? Can't seem to find anything on that subject on the Avery site.

Mark


Just checked Avery graphics site and found my way to laminating recommendations, and this is what it says in one section of the document.....

4.0 Overlamination

The following general recommendations apply to over

laminating Avery Dennison films with Avery
Dennison DOL clear overlaminate films. For specifi

c instructions relating to equipment operation when
overlaminating, please refer to the instructions pr
ovided by the laminator manufacturer.
1. The use of heat is generally not recommended whe
n overlaminating with Avery Dennison DOL clear
overlaminating films. Should heat be required in t
he overlamination process, do not exceed
115° F
(46° C)
on the top or bottom roll. Watch for possible hea
t-related problems, including waves,
tunneling, wrinkles, etc.

Think I will try with heat off......... to be continued.......

 

[Gino]

It's always been my understanding when laminating rigid laminate of any kind, you want some heat to prevent silvering, which is a form of bubbling. I think the heat assisted rollers are like 80º to 100º. Not 115º. we don't have heated rollers, so I can't say for sure.

 

[Charlie J]

The 1360 laminate is VERY thin and tough to use as laminate. We've recently switched to 1060. Laminates much better. Also easier to install.

I'll never go back to Arlon after the number of failures I've had out of their 4560gtx.

 

[Bly]

We never had an issue using 1360 or 1460 laminates with a similar laminator.
We never felt any need for any heat though.

 

[niksagkram]

The 1360 laminate is VERY thin and tough to use as laminate. We've recently switched to 1060. Laminates much better. Also easier to install.

I'll never go back to Arlon after the number of failures I've had out of their 4560gtx.

OK, thanks. Next order I will get some 1060 and try it.

As for Arlon, I haven't used the 4560 for a long time, but the 6000 we get 3 rolls every month or so and have never had a problem. Our vehicle installers just don't like the way it installs, too "grabby" when laying down on a vehicle. The MPI1005 is more "positionable".

Mark

 

[Printasaurus]

The MPI1005 is more "positionable".

Mark

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. If it weren't for the occasional coating issue and that some customers demand 3M, I would print every wrap we do on Avery. We did a small fleet of vans, 15 total, some were on IJ180, most on MPI1005 and we were about 20% faster when we installed with the Avery. I'm not sure how Arlon compares with it's initial tack, but I've yet to feel anything apply as smoothly as MPI1005. We've saved a lot of money in material cost, as well as in installation time going with Avery
wrap materials.

To the issue: I had bubbling issues with my GFP laminator as well, but only on the 1360. We turned off the heat and everything went perfect.

With the exception of prints that are being handed to customers that will be displayed indoors, we seldom use heat, except on textured laminates, since the silvering comes out in a day or two. I imagine your mileage my vary based on location and temperature.

 

[niksagkram]

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. If it weren't for the occasional coating issue and that some customers demand 3M, I would print every wrap we do on Avery. We did a small fleet of vans, 15 total, some were on IJ180, most on MPI1005 and we were about 20% faster when we installed with the Avery. I'm not sure how Arlon compares with it's initial tack, but I've yet to feel anything apply as smoothly as MPI1005. We've saved a lot of money in material cost, as well as in installation time going with Avery
wrap materials.

To the issue: I had bubbling issues with my GFP laminator as well, but only on the 1360. We turned off the heat and everything went perfect.

With the exception of prints that are being handed to customers that will be displayed indoors, we seldom use heat, except on textured laminates, since the silvering comes out in a day or two. I imagine your mileage my vary based on location and temperature.

OK, thanks. I'm going to bite the bullet, and try a long print, with heat off. Installs not until next week anyway, so if I have to re-print, no biggy.

Mark

 

[Baz]

Never had a problem with 1360 lam but i do prefer using 1060. It is a little thicker and is much better suited for cutting as well (for partial wraps). The 1360 is very rubbery!

I am using a Royal Sovereign laminator with no heat.

 

[niksagkram]

Well, just tried a 36"x96" mostly black print, MPI1005 print, 1360 lam, heat OFF, and exactly the same thing happened, so it doesn't seem to be a heat issue. So tomorrow I will try a MPI1005 print with Arlon 3220 overlam.



Mark

 

[Supergirl]

I use avery in that combination and don't have the issues.

 

[niksagkram]

I use avery in that combination and don't have the issues.

Thanks Supergirl. That's why I think it may be my laminator, but I don't want to start tweaking it because all my other stuff is fine, no problems whatsoever. Next order cycle I'm going to get a roll of DOL 1060 and see if that makes a difference.

Mark

 

[fresh]

I'm sure this sounds insane... Laminate application tape to the Laminate, and then run the app-taped laminate onto the vinyl.

This is how we laminate it using a big squeegee, and it works well.

 

[Clear Choice Laminating]

MUST WATCH!!
You are getting trapped air between the lam and the print because of a infeed wave watch this video this guy will explain better.
[video=youtube;3osVLuL2134]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3osVLuL2134[/video]

 

[Supergirl]

Thanks Supergirl. That's why I think it may be my laminator, but I don't want to start tweaking it because all my other stuff is fine, no problems whatsoever. Next order cycle I'm going to get a roll of DOL 1060 and see if that makes a difference.

Mark

the above works for me even if i use a big squeegee. almost perfect. i mostly still run it thru the laminator afterwards (don't ask, both my laminators are two man machines, so once it's thru squeegee i can use it by myself)

however, DOL 2060 or 3060 i can absolutely not use with the big squeegee. i get extreme silvering that takes 2 weeks to go away. putting it thru lam after that makes it even worse and generates what you show in pics. that's 2060 and 3060


1360 works like a charm.

good luck!!!

 

[niksagkram]

MUST WATCH!!
You are getting trapped air between the lam and the print because of a infeed wave watch this video this guy will explain better.
[video=youtube;3osVLuL2134]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3osVLuL2134[/video]

Thanks. I watched it, but I still don't understand why it only happens with the 1360.