Cluster ....

[Texas_Signmaker]

So, I get a call from a client that is opening a new franchise business and she said she got my name from the sign company that makes that particulars franchise's signs (who is out of state). The other sign company just looked me up on Google and said, "Call these folks they can install your sign". OK a little odd because usually the sign company that manufactures the signs handles dealing with local install people but oh well.

So I bid on the project, a set of channel letters, window graphics and two panels for the shopping center's marquee sign. Today I get in just the translucent vinyl for the marquee and was confused. I called the other sign company and asked them whats up with this? She said they usually just remove the old vinyl from the marquee faces and re-purpose them. "Whhhaaaa? You mean you want me to A) Make TWO trips with the bucket to remove the old sign, bring it back to the shop, remove the letters and possibly have ghosting, install new vinyl, go back out there and install the same day... or B) Do all this in the field? Does this make any sense?" She said we do it all the time.

I asked her did she explain this to the customer that she was not getting a complete sign? She said it was listed in her invoice. I explained to her that we can't expect a customer to find that and figure it out, it should of been explained to her or me what was going on.

I've done hundreds of receive and installs and never had a company just send me vinyl before. I asked her why they did this and she said it saves them on shipping costs. "OK, why wouldn't you just put it in the crate with the channel letters?" She says it's because the don't make channel letters, that someone else does. "OK, you can't drive the panels down to them before the crate up?" No, cause they are out of state. UUGH!

OK, so now I have to tell the customer she has to spend more $$ to reuse old signs or pay up for some new panels...

Question... is it common that people just send vinyl to reuse poly faces? Cause it's never happened to me. Who is at fault?

 

[henryz]

It happens, we know a few companies that do that and they don't care. That's how they get the business because they are cheap in every way possible. The customers loose every time or the sub if he accepts the job.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

It happens, we know a few companies that do that and they don't care. That's how they get the business because they are cheap in every way possible. The customers loose every time or the sub if he accepts the job.

Sadly, not all companies are like you guys You guys are A+ in how you prep for the installer.

 

[rossmosh]

Sounds like you get to make an extra few hundred bucks to mount the vinyl on some acrylic...

 

[CanuckSigns]

It's pretty common, we do it ourselves if the panel isn't very old, bit we always warn the client that there is a chance the panel won't be salvageable, in which case we will need to order in new plexi.

Bottom line, if the plastic is in good shape, there is no need to replace.

Reduce, reuse, recycle and all that

 

[CreativeCreationGraphics]

Sounds pretty common...

 

[Santimus]

We reuse old panels when customers try to be really cheap. They don't save that much money due to the labor involved but penny pinchers don't care. We do not, however, farm that crap out to other companies - especially not hiding the details like that! We usually make them bring it to us too but most of our clients are local not out-of-state.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

It's pretty common, we do it ourselves if the panel isn't very old, bit we always warn the client that there is a chance the panel won't be salvageable, in which case we will need to order in new plexi.

Bottom line, if the plastic is in good shape, there is no need to replace.

Reduce, reuse, recycle and all that

I'm all for reducing waste, but there are too many unknowns with reusing old panels. How long have the old panels been there and what if they start yellowing in a year or two? What if it cracks, or takes too long to remove letters, or ghosts... and now I have to make two trips or try to do all this out in the field? What if I discover the board is no good? Now I have to go back to customer and explain everything and hit them up for some more $$, order some poly and reschedule all this for another day? ... all to save $100-$200 in material? Naawww, it doesn't make sense to me. Give me new panels and let's not add a bunch of extra work or variables. My time is too valuable to be running around doing extra work that won't generate that much more $$. I like two trips per job... One to site survey, the second to install, that's it.

BTW: My customer paid for some new poly and I'm going to do them here. Good news is the city didn't require permits so instead of me refunding that amount we're just washing the cost with the boards.

 

[TimToad]

It's pretty common, we do it ourselves if the panel isn't very old, bit we always warn the client that there is a chance the panel won't be salvageable, in which case we will need to order in new plexi.

Bottom line, if the plastic is in good shape, there is no need to replace.

Reduce, reuse, recycle and all that

In cases where the client wants or expects us to reuse the poly or acrylic, we use a full coverage, edge to edge digital print on translucent white material and it pretty much looks like a new panel. We price it both ways and make no guarantees that there won't be some minor ghosting through the print. If the old face is full of text or is so old that the vinyl can't easily be removed, we force the issue and tell them that the removal time cost will be as much as a new face and steer them to a new face.

 

[Zendavor Signs]

Tex, I'm with you on this one. I lose a lot of jobs like this because my competitors often reuse. Only if I did the original job and am positive it will remove clean will I reuse.

 

[Gino]

When doing 3rd party instals, you're never gonna know what took place before you entered the picture.

As for the circumstances, disregarding the 3rd party portion, we'll always explain the pros and cons of just re-using the old faces over vs new ones. I'd say 75 % of the time, the end-user always opts for using the old panels over, which if fine by me. Usually, just scrap the old stuff off on site and instal the new graphics all in one fell swoop, creating the best cost effectiveness for everyone. In most cases, once the new copy is on there, no one really takes time to read..... what it used to say. I know, over the years, I've replaced graphics and it was the 3rd and 4th time the panels were being re-used.

I would venture to say, if you feel so adamant about the process being presented to you, tell the end-user of your concerns and ask them if they want you to intervene with new faces. However, make sure the sign company providing the graphics is alright that you over-rode what you were contracted to do.

 

[Tattoosleeve]

Even if we're re-using a face I would never do it on site. Aside from the weather factors, installing large graphics in a bucket is less than ideal. I guess if you had a platform lift but even then. We just grab the face and bring it back to the shop and reface in a more controlled environment. If something goes wrong we can just sort it out right away instead of having to drive back to the shop and then back on site again, etc. Customers here regularly go with the re-use option even though they're generally not saving a huge amount but as mentioned above we do the full white translucent print as well so even a refresh on an old face can look pretty good.

And I would certainly let a 3rd party installer know exactly what they were getting into before I expected them to give me a price.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

For those that are reusing... is the amount of $$ you're saving the customer by not buying new faces (which is not that much $) worth it to remove the signs, drive back to shop, remove letters and prep faces and install new and then go back out there and reinstall the faces?? I'm I the only one that sees this as a time/money efficiency issue?

 

[Gino]

Okay, so we may all be on the same page here........

You first said it was translucent letters going on, which most likely means that's what's coming off. You were gonna do these by yourself, so it also means they're probably 3' x 10' or less. How long would it take to razor blade translucent letters off a sign that size in the air or ground level ?? Maybe.... 1/2 hour per side at most ?? So, you spend an hour removing all the lettering and maybe another 15 minutes to wash them. Now, how long does it take to re-letter two faces this size ?? Less time then to take them off..... that's for sure. So, maybe you'll have a total of 2.5 to 3 hours in that sign. Not to mention the extra cost of the faces. Of course you are saving yourself headaches and money and in turn saving the customer lotsa money.

You were expecting two new faces, already lettered to slide in and after taking the old ones out. That never happened, so you wanna figure out how much to go take these faces out and do the same thing in your shop as could be accomplished on site and make two trips and have a happy customer. It'll take an hour or two extra, plus your travel time a second time, at least. all in the name of making it a little easier for you ??

My bigger concern would be, why didn't your supplying sign shop ship everything at once ?? Are they expecting to nickel and dime you to death on this job ?? You're gonna hafta make several trips for this company and you're already upset at how they are handling this. You just might consider telling them, you won't do a thing, until the entire job shows up.

 

[unclebun]

A 4x8 of 3/16" polycarbonate is $225, so that's $450 to the customer. But you only net $225 of it. The time it takes to retrieve the faces, remove the vinyl and clean them, and put them back up is all charged to the customer. But you didn't have to buy a piece of polycarbonate to do it or put one in your trash.

Besides, businesses turn over so quickly that a particular sheet of plastic in a sign may get 4 or 5 tenants' signage on it before it has enough sun damage to need replacement.

 

[CanuckSigns]

For those that are reusing... is the amount of $$ you're saving the customer by not buying new faces (which is not that much $) worth it to remove the signs, drive back to shop, remove letters and prep faces and install new and then go back out there and reinstall the faces?? I'm I the only one that sees this as a time/money efficiency issue?

You do save a bit, polycarb roll stock isn't cheap (at least not up here, not sure about the USA)

Even if you are replacing the plastic, you still need 2 trips, as you need to get an accurate measurement of the plastic in order to cut the new panels to the correct size, so still 2 trips with the bucket truck, then you need to cut the roll stock down to size (PITA depending on size), cut the hanger strips, glue them on, and apply the graphics.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Okay, so we may all be on the same page here........

You first said it was translucent letters going on, which most likely means that's what's coming off. You were gonna do these by yourself, so it also means they're probably 3' x 10' or less. How long would it take to razor blade translucent letters off a sign that size in the air or ground level ?? Maybe.... 1/2 hour per side at most ?? So, you spend an hour removing all the lettering and maybe another 15 minutes to wash them. Now, how long does it take to re-letter two faces this size ?? Less time then to take them off..... that's for sure. So, maybe you'll have a total of 2.5 to 3 hours in that sign. Not to mention the extra cost of the faces. Of course you are saving yourself headaches and money and in turn saving the customer lotsa money.

You were expecting two new faces, already lettered to slide in and after taking the old ones out. That never happened, so you wanna figure out how much to go take these faces out and do the same thing in your shop as could be accomplished on site and make two trips and have a happy customer. It'll take an hour or two extra, plus your travel time a second time, at least. all in the name of making it a little easier for you ??

My bigger concern would be, why didn't your supplying sign shop ship everything at once ?? Are they expecting to nickel and dime you to death on this job ?? You're gonna hafta make several trips for this company and you're already upset at how they are handling this. You just might consider telling them, you won't do a thing, until the entire job shows up.

They ARE nickel and dimeing me... They don't actually make the channel letters so they couldn't send faces without it costing a ton. They sent me 4 packages... Crate of channel letters, roll of translucent vinyl, another roll of window graphics and another roll of a banner, ALL at different times. Oh and the vinyl graphics are in 8 pieces when really it should of been three but they tried to save $2 of vinyl to cost me another 20-30 mins of time. And you right, they are 2' x 9'

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

A 4x8 of 3/16" polycarbonate is $225, so that's $450 to the customer. But you only net $225 of it. The time it takes to retrieve the faces, remove the vinyl and clean them, and put them back up is all charged to the customer. But you didn't have to buy a piece of polycarbonate to do it or put one in your trash.

Besides, businesses turn over so quickly that a particular sheet of plastic in a sign may get 4 or 5 tenants' signage on it before it has enough sun damage to need replacement.

That's a lot higher then when I pay. I just bought 52" x 9' of roll stock for $115... guess that's where all this wasted time isn't make much sense... Now that I see you guys are paying double then that might factor into the equation.

 

[Gino]

That is cheap. You're not getting poly for that price, unless you found some left over from someone else's job. Sounds more like acrylic.

 

[Billct2]

Doing the job as a sub I would expect the materials/methods to be spelled out ahead of time.
For our own clients we assess each job for bets/most economical option. Sometime it's strip/reletter on site, sometimes it's new faces.