Color calibration tools.. what do you use?

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

As the title suggests, I'm looking for your input on what tools you currently use or have used to color calibrate your computer monitors to your printers and your printers to produce accurate color prints.

Some backstory: We have a Roland XR-640 as well as a Roland LEC-540. We print graphics mainly for exhibit booth walls that not only line up across several 47" x 95" panels but also consist of the same image (usually) and we've had some issues in the past getting either printer to output accurate Pantone colors. (We know not all the Pantone's are going to be perfect, due to a lot being out of gamut).

We typically print the graphics for one booth on one printer and another booth on the other so the colors stay accurate within their own booth; but if we printed the same image from either printer, the colors are completely different. There have also been times where we'll print graphics and have the client comeback to have us reprint the same graphics and the colors are completely different, even though there hasn't been any changes to the profile or file itself.

We've looked into the X-Rite i1Display Pro, but haven't been advised of much else. What do the pro's think?

 

[dypinc]

What spectro does your RIP use? I would find a monitor profiling software that supports the same spectro. But, one like X-Rite i1Display Pro would work just as well. Or consider a monitor that has it's own calibration/profile package.

On reproducing named Pantone Spot colors calibrating and profile a monitor is of little use. Calibrating and profiling a printer is very useful especially the calibration/linearization part as you will probably want to use a RIP pantone library that sends output values to your printer. Values that you can adjusted if need be by printing a color chart of variations of output values and and pick the closet one that matches the spot in a Pantone Book.

 

[bob]

Calibrating your monitor is going to help with printer consistency in what way?

You want multiple printers to render the same image identically. Good luck with that, as you've noticed simply getting one printer to render an image and then do it again at a later date is difficult. Most of the time the output is good enough but it will seldom withstand really close scrutiny on the best of days.

Such is the nature of these machines. The more complex the device and especially the more complex the software driving it the more variation in output you will see. What comes out of the printer is the truth. If you accept this and stop any heroic efforts to bend it to your will, print a Pantone chart for each machine, and match whatever it is you're trying to do to this chart you can get on with your life. Regardless of what you, do be it a frenzy of profile tweaking or simply accepting what issues forth from the printer, you still must accept that there will be variations.

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

What spectro does your RIP use? I would find a monitor profiling software that supports the same spectro. But, one like X-Rite i1Display Pro would work just as well. Or consider a monitor that has it's own calibration/profile package.

On reproducing named Pantone Spot colors calibrating and profile a monitor is of little use. Calibrating and profiling a printer is very useful especially the calibration/linearization part as you will probably want to use a RIP pantone library that sends output values to your printer. Values that you can adjusted if need be by printing a color chart of variations of output values and and pick the closet one that matches the spot in a Pantone Book.

We use Versaworks Dual for the UV printer and it lists X-1 and GregTagMacbeth as it's accepted instruments. For the solvent printer, we use Flexi and it looks to be the same list. Have you experience with any monitors that include their own calibration/profile package that you could recommend?

Calibrating your monitor is going to help with printer consistency in what way?

You want multiple printers to render the same image identically. Good luck with that, as you've noticed simply getting one printer to render an image and then do it again at a later date is difficult. Most of the time the output is good enough but it will seldom withstand really close scrutiny on the best of days.

Such is the nature of these machines. The more complex the device and especially the more complex the software driving it the more variation in output you will see. What comes out of the printer is the truth. If you accept this and stop any heroic efforts to bend it to your will, print a Pantone chart for each machine, and match whatever it is you're trying to do to this chart you can get on with your life. Regardless of what you, do be it a frenzy of profile tweaking or simply accepting what issues forth from the printer, you still must accept that there will be variations.

Calibrating my monitors will help in allowing me to see the color as it will be once it's printed prior to actually printing it. Right now, both of my monitors don't even show the same colors and they're set up exactly the same. I've only been told that calibrating the monitors to match will give a clearer idea of the output, but have no experience knowing whether or not that's true. That's why I came to you guys. (figuratively speaking)

I totally understand that both printers aren't going to come out 100% matched, but I've got this boss that doesn't understand a UV printer isn't going to match a solvent printers output and visa versa. I'm just trying to research tools or ways to get our printers more in sync with their provided rip software to reduce these surprises to keep the wolves at bay. So any help or advise is greatly appreciated.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

1 way to help remedy the situation is to use a RIP that can handle both Machines. You are in a futile situation trying to get 2 separate RIPs to act the same.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Having your monitors color correct is useful, but it's not necessary.

You can get your printers to print the exact same colors (by the numbers), within their respective gamuts, but they'll never look exactly the same due to the difference in the UV and solvent inks. A spectrophotometer will not detect a difference though.

As far as consistency goes, it depends on how much color management you want to do. You absolutely can get your printers to print the same color day after day. It requires a climate controlled print room so your temperature and humidity stay consistent, and depending on how accurate you want your colors to be, you'll have to do color calibration pretty frequently. Whether that's once a month, once a week, or once a day, is up to you. If you're not printing for a demanding client, like Coca-Cola or UPS or anybody else with an extremely specific color, you should be able to do it monthly and stay consistent to within 5 dE.

For reference (and without spending a ton of time on color theory) a production printer should stay consistent to within 5 dE and a proofing printer to about 2.5 dE.

Real World Color Management is an awesome book if you're interested in jumping into color management. The color theory sections can make your head hurt, but it's all super interesting.

 

[Lane J]

We use and i1Display Pro for monitors and a i1iO for the printers, profiling both with the iProfiler software.
I've had my monitors profiled and re-profiled many many times and I would never try to Pantone match off of the screen. We have our digital proofs and we also have printed proofs off a printer calibrated and profiled just like our large format machines. I'll compare those to a Pantone book. If I still can't get it quite right, it's time to print off a swatch test and adjust the file.
Calibrating your monitors can help get a general idea of colour, but I wouldn't use it as my only reference. Chances are if you're sending off a digital proof, you client is checking them on a cell phone screen or a never-calibrated monitor.

And what 2CT said. We run all our machines through Onyx. Latex, Solvent, UV, all different makes and brands. They all print differently, but we can get them pretty damn close to printing the same. We're often pair digital jobs with large orders printed offset and we can get them close to the offset prints. Running one RIP has helped a lot!

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

1 way to help remedy the situation is to use a RIP that can handle both Machines. You are in a futile situation trying to get 2 separate RIPs to act the same.

That I can understand. The problem with that is mostly due to my own stubbornness. VersaWorks works great for our UV printer, but it does p*ss all for the solvent. I prefer Flexi in that I can still make edits to the files within the rip software, VW doesn't allow much. But even still, we've done test prints from VersaWorks to each printer and they're completely different. We get a closer match using the separate software for each printer, but that's because I have more knowledge with Flexi and can make the manual tweaks. Versaworks, not so much.

Having your monitors color correct is useful, but it's not necessary.

You can get your printers to print the exact same colors (by the numbers), within their respective gamuts, but they'll never look exactly the same due to the difference in the UV and solvent inks. A spectrophotometer will not detect a difference though.

As far as consistency goes, it depends on how much color management you want to do. You absolutely can get your printers to print the same color day after day. It requires a climate controlled print room so your temperature and humidity stay consistent, and depending on how accurate you want your colors to be, you'll have to do color calibration pretty frequently. Whether that's once a month, once a week, or once a day, is up to you. If you're not printing for a demanding client, like Coca-Cola or UPS or anybody else with an extremely specific color, you should be able to do it monthly and stay consistent to within 5 dE.

For reference (and without spending a ton of time on color theory) a production printer should stay consistent to within 5 dE and a proofing printer to about 2.5 dE.

Real World Color Management is an awesome book if you're interested in jumping into color management. The color theory sections can make your head hurt, but it's all super interesting.

That is incredibly helpful, thank you! I'll definitely look into purchasing that book as my knowledge with color management is fairly minimal.

I appreciate all your responses! Though I'm sure my boss won't be pleased to find out that everything isn't so plain and simple.

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

We use and i1Display Pro for monitors and a i1iO for the printers, profiling both with the iProfiler software.
I've had my monitors profiled and re-profiled many many times and I would never try to Pantone match off of the screen. We have our digital proofs and we also have printed proofs off a printer calibrated and profiled just like our large format machines. I'll compare those to a Pantone book. If I still can't get it quite right, it's time to print off a swatch test and adjust the file.
Calibrating your monitors can help get a general idea of colour, but I wouldn't use it as my only reference. Chances are if you're sending off a digital proof, you client is checking them on a cell phone screen or a never-calibrated monitor.

And what 2CT said. We run all our machines through Onyx. Latex, Solvent, UV, all different makes and brands. They all print differently, but we can get them pretty damn close to printing the same. We're often pair digital jobs with large orders printed offset and we can get them close to the offset prints. Running one RIP has helped a lot!

I'm gonna have to look into this Onyx RIP system. I've seen mention of it being used quite frequently around this forum and wonder if it has the same abilities as Flexi with the control of VersaWorks. and thank you for the real world review of the profilers! that's what our shop has been looking into for the past couple of months, but haven't quite been sold on their capabilities.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

If you're after color management, my understanding is that Caldera and Onyx are "the best" in regards to profiling.

There are a couple of guys that do nothing but color correction and calibration and they'll come to your shop and calibrate EVERYTHING and get it all as close to matching as humanly possible. I doubt your boss wants to drop $10k+ on it, but you can probably get him to buy you a couple books and a spectrophotometer.

 

[OADesign]

This...

1 way to help remedy the situation is to use a RIP that can handle both Machines. You are in a futile situation trying to get 2 separate RIPs to act the same.

Also, there is a thing called the G7 method. Some of the larger companies I work with use it to make sure all (or most) of their machines can produce the same output. There may be some G7 Certified Techs in your area that can get you dialed in. Could prove to be useful for your situation.
G7 Method - Wikipedia

 

[Solventinkjet]

Mimaki is offering color management classes throughout the next couple of months. They aren't free but you get hands on training from guys who actually do it for a living. Just in case anyone was interested.

SEMINARS
COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki USA Los Angeles, Torrance
Feb 1, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT BOOT CAMP
Mimaki USA Los Angeles, Torrance
Apr 10 - 12, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki Boston, Waltham
Apr 24, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki Texas Demo Center, Irving
Apr 26, 2018

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

This...


Also, there is a thing called the G7 method. Some of the larger companies I work with use it to make sure all (or most) of their machines can produce the same output. There may be some G7 Certified Techs in your area that can get you dialed in. Could prove to be useful for your situation.
G7 Method - Wikipedia

I do agree that we'll probably reach a more matched output using the same RIP system and it's my own stubbornness that has refused to work with VersaWorks solely. I just find that I have way more capabilities to edit and tweak colors to what I need them to be in Flexi, but VersaWorks was what was recommended for our UV printer so that's what stuck. I'll start looking into Onyx, though, since it appears to be what the pro's recommend above all and using one RIP software instead of the two sounds a whole lot easier.

I've contacted the Color Correct merchant for his services, but since his page specifies Onyx and Caldera software, I don't think he'd be of much help for us currently. G7 will be next on my list! Thank you, OA!

Mimaki is offering color management classes throughout the next couple of months. They aren't free but you get hands on training from guys who actually do it for a living. Just in case anyone was interested.

SEMINARS
COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki USA Los Angeles, Torrance
Feb 1, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT BOOT CAMP
Mimaki USA Los Angeles, Torrance
Apr 10 - 12, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki Boston, Waltham
Apr 24, 2018

COLOR MANAGEMENT FUNDAMENTALS WORKSHOP
Mimaki Texas Demo Center, Irving
Apr 26, 2018

Pardon my ignorance, but would a Mimaki color management training be beneficial for us using Roland's? I'd assume the color theory and management would remain the same across the board, but I don't have much room in my head for Mimaki specific training if I need more understanding on the Roland's (haha).

 

[ColorCrest]

You could use the i1Publish Pro 2 package which is $2500 and it will handle everything you need but more than that, it’s obvious to me that you could use a professional to provide some training. He will get your machines calibrated and profiled to match one another to the best of their ability before you invest in profiling equipment that you’re not really proficient with at this time. The cost you spend in training you would spend in time and materials and still not necessarily be adept.

So, I recommend you contact Mike Adams at Correct Color.

BTW, I’m not affiliated with Mike in any way, I just know he’s one who can solve your printing and workflow troubles in short order.

What does it cost to lose just one exhibit client?

 

[Solventinkjet]

The guys running the class are from SGIA not from Mimaki but will be demonstrating on Mimaki printers and software. I'm sure they will be able to tell you how it translates to other machines and software.

 

[mackenzieGRAPHICS]

You could use the i1Publish Pro 2 package which is $2500 and it will handle everything you need but more than that, it’s obvious to me that you could use a professional to provide some training. He will get your machines calibrated and profiled to match one another to the best of their ability before you invest in profiling equipment that you’re not really proficient with at this time. The cost you spend in training you would spend in time and materials and still not necessarily be adept.

So, I recommend you contact Mike Adams at Correct Color.

BTW, I’m not affiliated with Mike in any way, I just know he’s one who can solve your printing and workflow troubles in short order.

What does it cost to lose just one exhibit client?

I absolutely agree! I'm more of a hands-on learner, but if I'm having to read through the steps without any knowledge as to "why am I doing this?" or "how does this particular adjustment benefit me here as opposed to there" sorta thing, the new information doesn't exactly stick. I've reached out to Mike and am eagerly awaiting his response as to whether or not he currently works with Flexi or Versaworks. If he doesn't, I'll have to seek out someone that offers the same services for the RIP software we're currently using. I don't think my boss will go for the note that suggests we purchase new rip software with training as well as the cost for Mike's incredible services (the boss doesn't quite grasp the full picture, only the initial cost).

The guys running the class are from SGIA not from Mimaki but will be demonstrating on Mimaki printers and software. I'm sure they will be able to tell you how it translates to other machines and software.

That ought to be helpful! I'll look into the classes they're offering. Thank you, Vander!

 

[dypinc]

This...


Also, there is a thing called the G7 method. Some of the larger companies I work with use it to make sure all (or most) of their machines can produce the same output. There may be some G7 Certified Techs in your area that can get you dialed in. Could prove to be useful for your situation.
G7 Method - Wikipedia

G7 is not very useful for Wide Format Inkjet printer or any inkjet printer for that matter. It is very useful for digital and offset presses.

 

[Lane J]

G7 is not very useful for Wide Format Inkjet printer or any inkjet printer for that matter. It is very useful for digital and offset presses.

I agree. I do run a additional G7 test when profiling media, mainly to appease the Prepress boss. It's the religion to their offset world. The profiles all hit the ISO 12647, G7 target, but they don't all necessarily print alike. They can be all over the place, at least it seems to me. Then again, I don't really know much about G7.

 

[dypinc]

I agree. I do run a additional G7 test when profiling media, mainly to appease the Prepress boss. It's the religion to their offset world. The profiles all hit the ISO 12647, G7 target, but they don't all necessarily print alike. They can be all over the place, at least it seems to me. Then again, I don't really know much about G7.

Yes for inkjet proofing of offset or digital jobs it make sense. For signage not so much.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

You could use the i1Publish Pro 2 package which is $2500 and it will handle everything you need but more than that, it’s obvious to me that you could use a professional to provide some training. He will get your machines calibrated and profiled to match one another to the best of their ability before you invest in profiling equipment that you’re not really proficient with at this time. The cost you spend in training you would spend in time and materials and still not necessarily be adept.

So, I recommend you contact Mike Adams at Correct Color.

BTW, I’m not affiliated with Mike in any way, I just know he’s one who can solve your printing and workflow troubles in short order.

What does it cost to lose just one exhibit client?

I would second talking to Mike Adams. I spent some time talking with him when I was at another company, he's incredibly knowledgeable and a very, very nice guy. I'm not sure if the company ever went through with the process, as I left shortly after talking to Mike. He knows his stuff.