Color codes given are always conflicting

[myront]

Client gives the following guidelines for their color
RGB: 69 68 70
PMS: 172-15U / 172-15c
CMYK: 67 61 57 43

I say trust the cmyk no matter what the pantone is. My software only has Pantone P 172-15 C or U which converts slightly different than theirs
CMYK: 60 54 48 52

Problem is client has no pre-printed samples to supply us. This is a huge undertaking and a very prestigious client and don't want to disappoint.

p.s. I'm not the one worried. I printed swatches for them to choose from using different print profiles that obviously produce differing shades of dark gray. I say pick one and we'll use that from here on out.

 

[2B]

+1 for sample colors.

the color code helps, but if colors are important one really needs to submit and confirm the colors desired AT the location it will be viewed at.
material
lighting
angle
ETC.
all play a factor and they need to confirm

 

[Joe House]

RGB and CMYK color specs will vary from device to device, so they are not reliable communications tools for color values. Pantone is a color standard, but intended for offset printing, not CMYK inkjet printing. There are a lot of sign shops that don't fully understand these basic color management concepts, much less end users. And as 2B says, there are a lot more factors that come into play when we perceive color, so a color sample approved by the customer at their location is the safest bet and then make sure that you're following up by printing the job consistent with the sample. And if they're really picky, define the tolerance that they allow and how to measure that tolerance. I don't envy you guys at all.

Good Luck

 

[bannertime]

Don't you hate that? We got into a situation where a guy provided us some artwork for vehicle graphics. We printed as is and installed onto the vehicle. He came back complaining that it didn't match his other vehicles. We explained that we didn't touch his file (he accused us of altering his artwork) and that every printer may print it differently. He then accused us of making that up. We said we'll need to reprint but we need the other vehicle brought in so we can color match. Apparently if we were to "print the file as he sent it" it'd be just fine and that he will not be bringing the other vehicle in. However, we still need to replace the graphics with the proper color. No amount of explanation changed this guy's opinion. Eventually he said "wow great customer service, keep telling the customer how wrong they are.. just do what I asked you.." blah, blah blah. My favorite part was when he said "I'm color blind and even I can see they are different colors!" That's great dude, I can't color match something that we can't see, ya idiot.

That said; in hand color samples are the way to go. Have them take them to the location like 2B said. This has saved us numerous times.

 

[Joe House]

He came back complaining that it didn't match his other vehicles.

I'm not one to think of these things at the time, but did you think to ask where he got the other vehicles printed and why he didn't go back there? I bet if you got the story from the other graphics shop, they'd be saying the same thing about him "ya idiot"

 

[airborneassault]

Do you have a Pantone formula guide? If not it's worth the $150-175 investment especially for the circumstances you described. By all means don't feel like you have to share but is it a corporate client? Do they have a larger office that perhaps spec'd the PMS code?

With our latex I've found leaving the colors as PMS spot colors translates across much better but they have to be the coated version, the uncoated version gets whacky. You'll be delighted to find you don't have near the headache as other users because of the onboard spectro on your 360 and my personal experience has been that our 360 hits most of our PMS colors extremely closely.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I have to give props to S365 for their handling of color. Every RGB file I send them is DEAD ASS on when I get it. Their matching system is amazing.

 

[bannertime]

I'm not one to think of these things at the time, but did you think to ask where he got the other vehicles printed and why he didn't go back there? I bet if you got the story from the other graphics shop, they'd be saying the same thing about him "ya idiot"

Yeah, he had some excuses for why he didn't go back. I didn't even have to ask, he openly complained about them. It was pretty standard stuff like "too slow" and "rude." So I assumed it was more him than them. I expected some trouble. I believe he even said something about wondering why were still in business and that we'd never last by treating our customers the way we treated him. Well I'm sorry, not all my customers are nincompoops. I haven't seen his vehicles in about two or three years, so I assume he's gone out of business and here we are approaching 30.

 

[ColorCrest]

Client gives the following guidelines for their color
RGB: 69 68 70
PMS: 172-15U / 172-15c
CMYK: 67 61 57 43

I say trust the cmyk no matter what the pantone is. My software only has Pantone P 172-15 C or U which converts slightly different than theirs
CMYK: 60 54 48 52

Problem is client has no pre-printed samples to supply us. This is a huge undertaking and a very prestigious client and don't want to disappoint.

p.s. I'm not the one worried. I printed swatches for them to choose from using different print profiles that obviously produce differing shades of dark gray. I say pick one and we'll use that from here on out.

1) The given RGB values of 69 68 70 should tell you the color is practically dead-neutral so long as the RGB color space is common such as sRGB, Adobe 1998, ProPhoto or some other particularly esoteric option(s). The see what shade of gray you would need the Pantone book. (See #2...)

2) The given PMS values are the spec to use and the only trustworthy spec here. (Gotta have the book.)

3) The given CMYK values are the last to use. You don't know what CMYK input space they came from and the RIP will change those values anyway for a given output profile.

However, "Color codes given are always conflicting" meaning what, exactly?

 

[ColorCrest]

p.s. I'm not the one worried. I printed swatches for them to choose from using different print profiles that obviously produce differing shades of dark gray. I say pick one and we'll use that from here on out.

Are you saying you use different profiles for the same printer / ink / media setup combination that you can choose from?

 

[shoresigns]

RGB and CMYK color specs will vary from device to device, so they are not reliable communications tools for color values. Pantone is a color standard, but intended for offset printing, not CMYK inkjet printing.

Do you have a Pantone formula guide?

Both wrong answers. Read the original post.

The colour spec the client gave is a Pantone CMYK code. Pantone does have a colour matching system for CMYK, and it has nothing to do with their formula colours for offset printing.

myront your client's CMYK and RGB specs do not match the Pantone recommendations, but the ones you got from your software do. I would suggest that you bring your client in to look at a Pantone Formula book at your office, pick new brand colours, and then show them the closest match on a colour chart from your printer.

Here are the two Pantone colours in question, by the way, with CMYK and RGB conversions.
https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/P-172-15-C
https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/P-172-15-U

 

[ColorCrest]

myront your client's CMYK and RGB specs do not match the Pantone recommendations,

Very possible due to the fact that Pantone may change values in swatch books from year-to-year.

I would suggest that you bring your client in to look at a Pantone Formula book at your office, pick new brand colours, and then show them the closest match on a colour chart from your printer.

Can you imagine this method defeats the entire purpose of the Pantone concept altogether?

 

[shoresigns]

Can you imagine this method defeats the entire purpose of the Pantone concept altogether?

No, it doesn't. From what we've learned so far, it sounds like the client's designer picked from the wrong Pantone system (Pantone Process Coated/Uncoated), so I'm suggesting they pick a new colour from the de facto standard for brand colours, which is Pantone Formula Coated. That way they have a standard point of reference to use for official brand colours. 99% of the time when you're picking colours for a brand, they should be chosen from Pantone Formula Coated. The other 1% of the time, you need to know exactly why you're picking from outside of the de facto system that everyone uses, and what the consequences of that will be (higher costs or poor consistency).

 

[P Wagner]

RGB and CMYK color specs will vary from device to device, so they are not reliable communications tools for color values. Pantone is a color standard, but intended for offset printing, not CMYK inkjet printing. There are a lot of sign shops that don't fully understand these basic color management concepts, much less end users. And as 2B says, there are a lot more factors that come into play when we perceive color, so a color sample approved by the customer at their location is the safest bet and then make sure that you're following up by printing the job consistent with the sample. And if they're really picky, define the tolerance that they allow and how to measure that tolerance.

Color reproduction is definitely a potential minefield, with many variables to consider.

The concept of device dependency is not well understood in this market, either by PSPs or smaller end customers. The reality is that process color builds are always device dependent, media dependent, and print condition dependent. The use of a spot-based color standard such as Pantone, or a custom spot color based on LAB is almost always the best path to taming the color reproduction monster.

 

[ColorCrest]

I would suggest that you bring your client in to look at a Pantone Formula book at your office, pick new brand colours, and then show them the closest match on a colour chart from your printer.

The Pantone system was created in order to communicate color between individuals and their individual locations. The published swatch books are the common language. It’s not even necessary to provide any recipe values at all. Just understand a certain identified color is the goal. Make it so, using any values necessary to make it happen.

One should not need to “bring your client in to pick brand new colors” from yet another chart. Again, the notion defeats the purpose of the system.

No, it doesn't. From what we've learned so far, it sounds like the client's designer picked from the wrong Pantone system (Pantone Process Coated/Uncoated), so I'm suggesting they pick a new colour from the de facto standard for brand colours, which is Pantone Formula Coated. That way they have a standard point of reference to use for official brand colours. 99% of the time when you're picking colours for a brand, they should be chosen from Pantone Formula Coated. The other 1% of the time, you need to know exactly why you're picking from outside of the de facto system that everyone uses, and what the consequences of that will be (higher costs or poor consistency).

The point of reference is the appearance of the swatch sample, not the formula. Pantone's formulas change over time to recreate the same identified color. Their formula is most likely a different process than the sign maker's anyway. It is necessary for each party to have an actual swatch book as it is the expression of the color. Without the swatch, formulas or values cannot be reliable.

 

[Jb1983]

I don’t bother with any of the technical mumbo jumbo, give the customer laymen options. Just print a batch of test sample swatches and have the customer sign off on it. Avoid any potential headache. ALWAYS print a sample first.

I’m also straight up and tell them to expect a variance I never promise the world and put myself in a position to underwhelm.

If a customer is giving me a total anal vibe i just say this is what I can do, so if it doesn’t work for you then I guess I’m not your guy. You’d be surprised how quickly most of them change there tune. Most people appreciate honesty.

 

[myront]

Are you saying you use different profiles for the same printer / ink / media setup combination that you can choose from?

We start the a known profile for a specific substrate. Print color swatches using 6-pass then 10-pass and 16-pass. They will all produce different shade according to the saturation of color. Take red for instance. We're all in agreement what red should look like (3M red read-to-apply) vinyl. In order for the printer to produce anything near that we have to print at 16-pass or above. Now throw in there that the printer we had before produced colors specific to a particular client/company and now they want more but we've changed printers since then. And we all know it's virtually impossible to reproduce the same color.

Follow me on another tangent.
We won the bid to produce reflective graphics for our county sheriff's fleet. We initially started with 6-8 vehicles. We then started getting requests from the body shops for replacement graphics. Police hit deer all the time and such. Seems our graphics wouldn't match up to the color or the sizing. It was driving us crazy. Finally got the sheriff's department to admit that they had another "cheaper" company copy the design and produce and apply the vinyl straight away then had the cars shipped to them. And they still couldn't understand why we couldn't get the colors right. We have to replace the whole side of those vehicles now as they get damaged.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

The formulas are useless as an absolute color reference. The only thing that matters in this case is the actual local color of the swatch (in this case Pantone). Point with your finger to the physical swatch and have the client look at it with his/her eyeball (under whatever viewing conditions they choose). If travel is a problem, Pantone sells individual swatches and swatchbooks with tear-out samples.

 

[eahicks]

Don't you hate that? We got into a situation where a guy provided us some artwork for vehicle graphics. We printed as is and installed onto the vehicle. He came back complaining that it didn't match his other vehicles. We explained that we didn't touch his file (he accused us of altering his artwork) and that every printer may print it differently. He then accused us of making that up. We said we'll need to reprint but we need the other vehicle brought in so we can color match. Apparently if we were to "print the file as he sent it" it'd be just fine and that he will not be bringing the other vehicle in. However, we still need to replace the graphics with the proper color. No amount of explanation changed this guy's opinion. Eventually he said "wow great customer service, keep telling the customer how wrong they are.. just do what I asked you.." blah, blah blah. My favorite part was when he said "I'm color blind and even I can see they are different colors!" That's great dude, I can't color match something that we can't see, ya idiot.

That said; in hand color samples are the way to go. Have them take them to the location like 2B said. This has saved us numerous times.

And what are the odds the LAST place that did them didn't print them the 'correct' color that the file was. Yours may have been right and the previous ones were wrong.

 

[ColorCrest]

We start the a known profile for a specific substrate. Print color swatches using 6-pass then 10-pass and 16-pass. They will all produce different shade according to the saturation of color.

Printer profiles are expecting to be used with only one particular “pass” setting. Only 1 would likely be correct, if any are correct at all. The answer should be found in the profile naming convention and / or in actual prints of a control image.

Now throw in there that the printer we had before produced colors specific to a particular client/company and now they want more but we've changed printers since then. And we all know it's virtually impossible to reproduce the same color.

Remember the main point of color management is to produce like color among various machines. (It does work surprisingly well, IMO.)

It was driving us crazy. Finally got the sheriff's department to admit that they had another "cheaper" company copy the design and produce and apply the vinyl straight away then had the cars shipped to them. And they still couldn't understand why we couldn't get the colors right. We have to replace the whole side of those vehicles now as they get damaged.

One of the standard operating procedures for print operators is to include gray swatches alongside artwork so they have a baseline idea of how machines are behaving and what colors artwork include. So, seeing neutral grays from known neutral values provide confidence that the basic process is in control. (Optimum color is a bit more involved.)

Maybe these tips help avoid that "crazy" feeling in the future.