Complaining about attitudes on S101?

[Texas_Signmaker]

I know some people have complained about how harsh it is here and that this is some kind of problem that needs attention. Fact is, this place is pretty normal as far as "professional communities online" go. Check out car forums, electrician forums, plumber forums. THOSE people get a ton more newbies then we do asking basic questions. I've been part of technology forums and the immaturity there is MANY times worse.

I'm not excusing bad behavior or members being snarky to each other, and some do need some moderation...I can poke the bear sometimes too for a little fun. But let's not make this sound like the worse place on the internet that needs immediate moderation or some sort of "fix". I think most here are pretty calm and moderate themselves and some blow the slightest comments out of proportion... no biggie it's just life.

For those that are thinking this site is some terrible place, please join other forums and get a real taste as to the immaturity of ignorance of the general "internet public". You'll then see we're pretty high up there when it comes to behavior. Again, not excusing bad behavior.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

I know some people have complained about how harsh it is here and that this is some kind of problem that needs attention. Fact is, this place is pretty normal as far as "professional communities online" go. Check out car forums, electrician forums, plumber forums. THOSE people get a ton more newbies then we do asking basic questions. I've been part of technology forums and the immaturity there is MANY times worse.

I'm not excusing bad behavior or members being snarky to each other, and some do need some moderation...I can poke the bear sometimes too for a little fun. But let's not make this sound like the worse place on the internet that needs immediate moderation or some sort of "fix". I think most here are pretty calm and moderate themselves and some blow the slightest comments out of proportion... no biggie it's just life.

For those that are thinking this site is some terrible place, please join other forums and get a real taste as to the immaturity of ignorance of the general "internet public". You'll then see we're pretty high up there when it comes to behavior. Again, not excusing bad behavior.

I don't disagree with you at all, but there's a pretty big difference between friendly ribbing and straight up bullying and/or harassment. I'll be the first to admit that I get my hands dirty sometimes, but it's always with the same people, making the same tired comments. It's like watching toddlers test their limits. They're getting away with more and more, so they keep pressing their boundaries. As far as trade forums go, this place has gotten pretty bad. Not the worst, but it's gone from an A to a D+ over the last couple of years.

The problem is that a lot of people have forgotten their roots. Nobody on this site is the Sign Messiah, born with all the knowledge of the sign world, here to lead us to Sign Paradise. We all learned the same way: asking questions, making mistakes, listening and observing. If you're not here to help, and you're not here seeking help, what are you here for? If you want to be a jackhole and fight with people, there's an entire platform for that: Twitter.

 

[Stacey K]

I don't think it's a terrible place at all. If you want to see people get mean, support your favorite political candidate on FB - that gets the party started every time!

 

[Gino]

There are many ways to run a forum and I am not about to make any suggestions as how to do it. Whether the owners and admins like what's going on or not, people will be people and from all walks of life. No getting around it.

With derby's mentality, ya just get rid of those ya don't like for whatever reasons suit your needs. However, the door swings both ways. His know-it-all attitude that he thinks he knows what makes others tick is somewhat annoying, but ya get used to it. It much like water rolling off a duck's backside.

And no, we didn't all learn the same way, not at all. The expectations and entry levels have been dropped/lowered so far.... anything and anyone can now get into this industry. But, it is what it is. So, we all put up with the present work force, regardless of what they do or do not know.

There are quite a few personalities to deal with at a place like this... or any other forum and they're all pretty much the same. Someone who has progressed learns how to deal with them all. Some different than others, but you still deal with them. Some here, evidently have not yet evolved enough to deal with other people and find every reason to get others thrown out, banned or ridiculed. To each their own. I still plan to help those who are willing to help themselves and do things much the way it's been over the last 100 years or so, before this big change of entrepreneurship of the sign industry.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I don't think the forum is horrible by any means, but the quality of the content has gone downhill drastically in the last 3 years or so. When I first joined there was a huge amount of knowledge here about signmaking & business management, most of the "old guys" who used to contribute so much are now gone (SignManiac, IslandSign, Dan Antonelli, Joey Diaz and a bunch more I'm sure I'm forgetting). It used to feel like being at an industry event where you get to hear from all these experts in your field and interact with them, I know personally I have learned a ton from this forum and it has helped me and my business grow.

That feeling is now gone, threads showcasing amazing projects done by leaders of the industry have been replaced by threads about identifying fonts and where to source the cheapest third party ink, latex or solvent etc.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

There are many ways to run a forum and I am not about to make any suggestions as how to do it. Whether the owners and admins like what's going on or not, people will be people and from all walks of life. No getting around it.

With derby's mentality, ya just get rid of those ya don't like for whatever reasons suit your needs. However, the door swings both ways. His know-it-all attitude that he thinks he knows what makes others tick is somewhat annoying, but ya get used to it. It much like water rolling off a duck's backside.

And no, we didn't all learn the same way, not at all. The expectations and entry levels have been dropped/lowered so far.... anything and anyone can now get into this industry. But, it is what it is. So, we all put up with the present work force, regardless of what they do or do not know.

There are quite a few personalities to deal with at a place like this... or any other forum and they're all pretty much the same. Someone who has progressed learns how to deal with them all. Some different than others, but you still deal with them. Some here, evidently have not yet evolved enough to deal with other people and find every reason to get others thrown out, banned or ridiculed. To each their own. I still plan to help those who are willing to help themselves and do things much the way it's been over the last 100 years or so, before this big change of entrepreneurship of the sign industry.

Perfect example of what I was talking about.

Gino is incapable of making a post without resulting to childish insults and naming names.

 

[Gino]

Perfect example of what I was talking about.

Gino is incapable of making a post without resulting to childish insults and naming names.

Where were you insulted ?? I just stated facts.

 

[JR's]

Hey Texas, I think your short and your mother dresses you funny. ;-)

 

[unclebun]

Derby touched on the issue, and Gino referred to it as well. What are people's roots? The majority on the forum now have entered the sign business the way that Derby believes all have--by blundering their way into it from outside, figuring it out as they go. Those that have succeeded in earning some money believe they know everything, yet really only know what they have had experience with. Those of us who are older and have been at it much longer likely learned the business from another longtime experienced person, through a formal or informal apprenticeship. These people actually did gain an understanding of the whole of the sign business, even if they didn't do every part of it. And as new things have come along, they've had to learn them as well.

I believe the decline Canuck refers to has to do with the age of those "masters", and their having retired, died, or left the industry. And then there are the "disruptors" who are hellbent on commoditizing the craft, removing skills and knowledge and ingenuity in the process. And so you have the inevitable clash between the new know-it-alls, the old seen-everythings, and the newbies who have been sucked into the "everything is a wrap and anyone with a computer can make them" business. Mix in a dash of internet intolerance and keyboard bravado, and you get conflict.

Personally, I think there are really just a few who create all the conflict. Whether it's on purpose, or because of thin-skinnedness, or because they have learned to dish it out but not to take it, I cannot say. But you can learn to read personalities from forum posts, and you can project personalities from forum posts. And if you are part of a forum as part of a community, you will learn people and get along with them, just like in real life.

 

[Johnny Best]

I went and received ashes this morning so I am going to abstain from controversy for Lent.
But I do agree with Tex and unclebun.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Hey Texas, I think your short and your mother dresses you funny. ;-)

I am short, and looking at photos from the 90s, my mother did dress my funny.



--

I think some of the questions that are asked and met with a bit of a hostility are questions that one should not be learning from the internet, but apprenticing alongside a seasoned sign maker. Some of the tasks we preform can put us in life-threatening situations... One mistake and a signmaker can be killed, or kill someone else with a poorly installed or designed sign. It can anger people here when they ask such questions and show a lack of experience and could put themselves at risk, the public or their employees.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Where ever you go, people will be people. I don't think this is any worse of a place. Automotive forums was mentioned, imagine starting a diesel (yay) v gas (boo) thread. That'll get your pulses jumping.

Now, I think where things are lost is how critique is done. Some things that pass for critique are obviously just one's stroking their own ego. That's where I think things get off the rails. Some try to put it under the guise of "tough love", not really that either. Those people are either being crusty or they just enjoy being derisive or a bit of both.

I'm not saying to sugar coat the damn response, if something sucks or if the way of doing something is a big no-no, there should be clear concise reason(s) for it to suck or be a no-no. Just mention that and provide possible alternatives. The ad hominem (or just other plain irrelevent) attacks are just there for ego stroking and end up take the subject off topic. Which any helpful responses will more then likely be lost in that static.

I see that as a big source of the decline, the excess "static".

 

[Billct2]

I usually ignore the BS, it's not hard to do. I do miss a lot of great sign people who have dropped out of here. I have a feeling it was a combination of the snark and the repetition of questions.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Derby touched on the issue, and Gino referred to it as well. What are people's roots? The majority on the forum now have entered the sign business the way that Derby believes all have--by blundering their way into it from outside, figuring it out as they go. Those that have succeeded in earning some money believe they know everything, yet really only know what they have had experience with. Those of us who are older and have been at it much longer likely learned the business from another longtime experienced person, through a formal or informal apprenticeship. These people actually did gain an understanding of the whole of the sign business, even if they didn't do every part of it. And as new things have come along, they've had to learn them as well.

I believe the decline Canuck refers to has to do with the age of those "masters", and their having retired, died, or left the industry. And then there are the "disruptors" who are hellbent on commoditizing the craft, removing skills and knowledge and ingenuity in the process. And so you have the inevitable clash between the new know-it-alls, the old seen-everythings, and the newbies who have been sucked into the "everything is a wrap and anyone with a computer can make them" business. Mix in a dash of internet intolerance and keyboard bravado, and you get conflict.

Personally, I think there are really just a few who create all the conflict. Whether it's on purpose, or because of thin-skinnedness, or because they have learned to dish it out but not to take it, I cannot say. But you can learn to read personalities from forum posts, and you can project personalities from forum posts. And if you are part of a forum as part of a community, you will learn people and get along with them, just like in real life.

Just for the record, I didn't say we all "blundered" into the industry from the outside. I said we all learned the exact same way, whether it was from watching people work (growing up in a family business, for instance, or an apprenticeship), making mistakes and learning the hard way, and so on. The first time you ever set foot into a shop to work, no matter how you got there, you're not going to have all the answers. Even to questions that seem obvious.

It's like getting fatter: you gradually absorb more information (hopefully) until you're brimming with knowledge, but you don't necessarily realize it's happening until your pants don't fit one day. Some people seem to have forgotten that they didn't always have all the answers.

 

[Gene@mpls]

I am a principle on a laser forum and the first rule is 'Be Nice'. You must use your real name and if you aren't nice, you are gone. It is a pleasant part of my day and I look forward to checking it.

 

[equippaint]

And here we are, all together complaining about complaining..... Clearly its someone elses fault

 

[GAC05]

Most of the spice is gone from the forum with the old hands moving on - just the bland day to day stuff left: What font is this?, my printer won't turn on, Latex is awesome etc..... Can't be helped I guess.
I look back fondly on the 'Fred' days.......

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

Yep, the good ol' days. Can you imagine what some of these threads would be like with Old Paint ))))))) )) )))))) ?? Or Si Allen ??

Interesting ........ complaining about complaining. Guess it's just a sign of the times of the baton being handed over. To what, we don't know, but it happens all the time. Good luck.

 

[rydods]

There are definitely some pretty "basic" questions asked from time to time and I'll admit to eating popcorn when I see them but it does seem that some are looking to poke others in the ribs and that's their main intention on here. At least that's from my prospective.

I do know one thing, I'm glad most of you are owners because if one of my employees posted as often, they'd be fired in a heartbeat. Go make signs people!

 

[printguyjohn]

Hello. I'm new here but have been browsing for many years. If I may add my 2 cents:

From experience in both sign, print and trades contractor forums:

Usually the most bitter, toxic and "not so polite" people on the forums related to local small business services LIKE print/signs/contractors (plumbers, etc) are the "Old Heads". Guys from small towns who don't have much work, spend their whole day on Facebook and Forums complaining that the new guy who just opened up shop is "Underbidding him and destroying the market"..."That Signs365/4Over/Vistaprint/Amazon" is "killing American business and the consumer suffers, etc etc".

In general, that is why in my opinion there exists so much hostility to "Newbies" or "stupid questions".... The old timers (not all) feel like their industry is being flooded with new guys who come on here to "skip the leanring process"... And that their industry is awash with new guys who think a $300 chinese plotter or $2,000 used DesignJet printer makes them the vehicle wrap expert. Since they are suffering, they come on here and lash at anyone who seemingly seems like an outsider trying to beat them to the last nickel available.

If someone was running a successful businesss or at least trying to by spending their time ON their business, they would have IMHO very little time to come on a forum and react to at times "Silly / Crazy" quesitons that may be posted by other users, new and old alike.

I'm here to receive and provide value. I ask, read, learn. If I can, I write to help as well.

Having a bad day? Keep it to yourself.

Mad that online printing companies are selling banners at $0.99 square foot and you can't compete and now your local customers in your tiny town are buying online? No one cares.

It's simple, follow the golden rule.

Either help and provide value or keep your negativity to yourself. No one cares that your great grandfather hand-made a neon sign and "back in your days" or "Real Americans buy banners from local shops at $4.00 PSF"

/rant

/2 cents