Discussion Decision: CNC Router or small digital printer?

[Cyclynn]

Hello, Good People; my name is Lynn. I am in a quandary. I've been running my shop for 18 years. I would love to sell it... to see some new energy in here that could take it where I don't have the energy to take it. But... that ain't happening yet, and I don't want to walk away from it, either. I am the only sign shop in a small, rural town 70 miles from the nearest city (Spokane). I'm too community-minded to make my customers go to Spokane for all their sign needs. So... I'm looking to 'acquisition therapy' to keep me enthused about coming to work... and perhaps make my shop more saleable. I have been lusting after a CNC Router for years. My shop has been busy enough with vinyl work, but I love the way 3-d signs look, and I'd like to slide into the residential sign market. I've been sandblasting HDU for years, but I prefer the look and versatility of routed signs. I'm not a good enough carver to be able to charge for hand carving everything. Sense suggests, though, that I lean toward a digital printer. I use a wholesale company in Spokane, but for small work I end up paying a lot because of waste issues. I don't really like the thought of maintaining any more machines, but at least there would be joy with the cnc. Probably more profitability with the digital printer. What do you folks think, if you care to weigh in...

 

[studio 440]

Hello, Good People; my name is Lynn. I am in a quandary. I've been running my shop for 18 years. I would love to sell it... to see some new energy in here that could take it where I don't have the energy to take it. But... that ain't happening yet, and I don't want to walk away from it, either. I am the only sign shop in a small, rural town 70 miles from the nearest city (Spokane). I'm too community-minded to make my customers go to Spokane for all their sign needs. So... I'm looking to 'acquisition therapy' to keep me enthused about coming to work... and perhaps make my shop more saleable. I have been lusting after a CNC Router for years. My shop has been busy enough with vinyl work, but I love the way 3-d signs look, and I'd like to slide into the residential sign market. I've been sandblasting HDU for years, but I prefer the look and versatility of routed signs. I'm not a good enough carver to be able to charge for hand carving everything. Sense suggests, though, that I lean toward a digital printer. I use a wholesale company in Spokane, but for small work I end up paying a lot because of waste issues. I don't really like the thought of maintaining any more machines, but at least there would be joy with the cnc. Probably more profitability with the digital printer. What do you folks think, if you care to weigh in...

why not get both

 

[Cyclynn]

$$$$, and a husband that is discouraging both...

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

Personally, I ran a digital printer for a prior company that I worked for. Now that I am out on my own and the opportunity came for me to buy a cnc, I jumped on it. Now I wish I had gotten a larger cnc. The one I got was 28" x 48"... I'd love to have a 4 x 8 machine....

 

[Billct2]

CNC, there are lots of people with printers and you can buy from wholesale places really cheap. But CNCs aren't as common, would be a lot more fun, and dimensional signs are a smaller and more profitable market.

 

[TrustMoore_TN]

I would discourage both as well... Especially if you are looking to sell. Especially if a prospective buyer isn't interested in taking the business in the direction (vision) that you have. And in my opinion, just having the equipment in house without enough business to justify the purchase won't making the addition of that equipment an attractive selling point. Now if by contrast, you had the "energy" to go out and create a demand for products that could be produced using the equipment and had several years worth of sales under your belt... that is attractive to a perspective buyer. But if you're already saying that you feel that the business needs new energy, the last thing I would do is tie the business to a new purchase or lease of equipment. Just my $0.02.

 

[Cyclynn]

I would discourage both as well... Especially if you are looking to sell. Especially if a prospective buyer isn't interested in taking the business in the direction (vision) that you have. And in my opinion, just having the equipment in house without enough business to justify the purchase won't making the addition of that equipment an attractive selling point. Now if by contrast, you had the "energy" to go out and create a demand for products that could be produced using the equipment and had several years worth of sales under your belt... that is attractive to a perspective buyer. But if you're already saying that you feel that the business needs new energy, the last thing I would do is tie the business to a new purchase or lease of equipment. Just my $0.02.

Thank you, Voice of Reason...

 

[Cyclynn]

CNC, there are lots of people with printers and you can buy from wholesale places really cheap. But CNCs aren't as common, would be a lot more fun, and dimensional signs are a smaller and more profitable market.

I found this close by... CNC ROUTER 4X4

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

CNC Router hands down is the better choice. Higher Margins, More diverse projects, and More Clients in need.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

(

I found this close by... CNC ROUTER 4X4

I be live that is more of a kit machine, and I think $6500 Is a little expensive, but I may be wrong.

Another avenue for getting some info is 3dsignforum.com and cnczone.com (I believe those are the correct url's).

 

[Cyclynn]

I would discourage both as well... Especially if you are looking to sell. Especially if a prospective buyer isn't interested in taking the business in the direction (vision) that you have. And in my opinion, just having the equipment in house without enough business to justify the purchase won't making the addition of that equipment an attractive selling point. Now if by contrast, you had the "energy" to go out and create a demand for products that could be produced using the equipment and had several years worth of sales under your belt... that is attractive to a perspective buyer. But if you're already saying that you feel that the business needs new energy, the last thing I would do is tie the business to a new purchase or lease of equipment. Just my $0.02.

That's how my husband feels. I was thinking that if I had the router, I would enjoy the residential sign market enough to promote strongly in that field. Also to offer router work to local woodworkers, upsell dimensional elements to business signs...

 

[James Burke]

Hello, Good People; my name is Lynn. I am in a quandary. I've been running my shop for 18 years. I would love to sell it... to see some new energy in here that could take it where I don't have the energy to take it. But... that ain't happening yet, and I don't want to walk away from it, either. I am the only sign shop in a small, rural town 70 miles from the nearest city (Spokane). I'm too community-minded to make my customers go to Spokane for all their sign needs. So... I'm looking to 'acquisition therapy' to keep me enthused about coming to work... and perhaps make my shop more saleable. I have been lusting after a CNC Router for years. My shop has been busy enough with vinyl work, but I love the way 3-d signs look, and I'd like to slide into the residential sign market. I've been sandblasting HDU for years, but I prefer the look and versatility of routed signs. I'm not a good enough carver to be able to charge for hand carving everything. Sense suggests, though, that I lean toward a digital printer. I use a wholesale company in Spokane, but for small work I end up paying a lot because of waste issues. I don't really like the thought of maintaining any more machines, but at least there would be joy with the cnc. Probably more profitability with the digital printer. What do you folks think, if you care to weigh in...

"Acquisition Therapy"...I absolutely love it, but I know all too well that it is really a trap we set for ourselves. I know firsthand. I've been caught in that trap many times...and I have a lot of stuff to prove it. I just didn't know that it actually had a name.

I personally suffer from a similar syndrome called "Equipatuation" (pronounced ek-wip-at-u-ation). Equipment + Infatuation = you guessed it....equipatuation. In another life, I was a tool and die maker so I'm instantly drawn to high-quality cool stuff...almost like a drunk who can't pass a bar.

Anyway, I would suggest that you start with your customer's need first...and then work backward from there. Let the cold hard facts guide your buying decision, not some fuzzy feel-good hunch. The energy you draw from interested customers will far outweigh the internal motivation you could ever muster on your own.

JB

 

[johnwon]

Hello, Good People; my name is Lynn. I am in a quandary. I've been running my shop for 18 years. I would love to sell it... to see some new energy in here that could take it where I don't have the energy to take it. But... that ain't happening yet, and I don't want to walk away from it, either. I am the only sign shop in a small, rural town 70 miles from the nearest city (Spokane). I'm too community-minded to make my customers go to Spokane for all their sign needs. So... I'm looking to 'acquisition therapy' to keep me enthused about coming to work... and perhaps make my shop more saleable. I have been lusting after a CNC Router for years. My shop has been busy enough with vinyl work, but I love the way 3-d signs look, and I'd like to slide into the residential sign market. I've been sandblasting HDU for years, but I prefer the look and versatility of routed signs. I'm not a good enough carver to be able to charge for hand carving everything. Sense suggests, though, that I lean toward a digital printer. I use a wholesale company in Spokane, but for small work I end up paying a lot because of waste issues. I don't really like the thought of maintaining any more machines, but at least there would be joy with the cnc. Probably more profitability with the digital printer. What do you folks think, if you care to weigh in...

Based on what equipment I've gotten the best ROI on, I'd look at the CNC router. If you have the space, go with a 4x8 table and get one that you can get the parts for in the country if something breaks. Material comes in 4x8 sheets and customers often order 4x6 and 4x8 signs. Dimensional signs are not fun to glue up after you route them if your bed is not big enough. With a CNC router, you will find ways to use it that will save you time. Printers require a lot more maintenance in my opinion if you don't use them a lot. If a router is not used for a day or a week, granted, you have the cost of the equipment you won't have heads drying out. We use ours to cut sign shapes, letters, shapes for layering material, sometimes we use it just to square up material, to router 3D signs, to plane rough cut wood after gluing it up to save the time of planing it in the planer and sanding the epoxy off after gluing it up, and the list goes on. With the router, we don't need to order letters from a wholesale source or spend all day cutting them on the band saw, we don't need to order aluminum sign blanks from the distributor, we don't need to pay for sandblasting of signs, we can create amazing signs with inlays and v-carved letters in a fraction of the time of doing them by hand.

Another option that you could consider if you don't want the expense and mess of a CNC Router or the maintenance of a Printer is a co2 laser. We have a 30w VersaLaser that we cut Acrylic letters and logos on and engrave on all sorts of materials. You can mark stainless and cut just about anything in a laser except PVC. Our laser tubes seem to need replacing about every 5 years or so but that's about it on the cost of maintenance.

 

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

You think $6500 is too much...
I think you'll have problems fulfilling your ambitions then.

However, I'd look into second hand routers, and second hand latex printers, if you really want to.
We spent over $25k on a really old big secondhand router 10 years ago, before all these cheap chinese ones were about.
I barely had the money, but instinctively knew it would be worthwhile.
It was.
However the learning curve will be big, and you need to make mistakes to figure the parameters and boundaries.

If your husband does not have faith in you and support your ideals or ambitions then that is exceedingly sad, in my opinion, and could prove a stumbling block.

As above, lasers are useful, but not as useful as a router - but they're different, and more convenient for some jobs..

 

[billsines]

As someone who owns a flatbed UV, several CNCs, and two Epilog lasers, I will speak from the maintenance perspective. The most is the UV printer. the Epilogs are beasts that run forever. When you do need parts you can call someone who speaks English in Colorado and get any part overnighted. They have the best support. As for the CNCs, I use EZ-Router out of Texas. I would recommend the 4x8 green machine with a 3.25 hp porter cable, unless you want the automatic tool changer, then I think you have to go with a spindle. Definitely need the vac bed. As for maintenance, I have been working on these the longest, over 10 years. You can get pretty much every single part they put in that machine. I love them, they are very easy to work on for me. Maybe not the best support, but if you're technical or have someone in house that is technical, they are way simpler machines than my UV printer.

From another perspective, if you are getting tired, do you really want to start from scratch with new equipment that has a big learning curve? Do you make enough money to support yourself as is? What about becoming an "absentee owner" where you hire a few more really good people with benefits and pay yourself in more time off? This is more of a personality question I guess.

Also, I think you can get into CNC for less money than printing.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Laser cutters are getting cheaper and are (at least around here) even less common than CNCs. They're versatile and they're fun. Even with a small one, you can still do sizeable dimensional letters. Laser engraved wood looks very nice. Opens up a lot of options.

 

[Sandman]

After being in the sign business a short while, and seeing the amazing 3D signs in Signcraft magazine I bought a compressor and sandblasting equipment. I created a market for sandblasted signs because I showed samples and was genuinely excited about them. They quickly became the majority of my sign work. BTW, I'm also in a small town but I have a couple small cities 30 miles away. When CNC Routers started coming down in price I decided to go that route. I was tired of sweating in the sandblasting gear in the summer and freezing in the winter. The CNC made sense to me since I could let it do the work while I did something else. It was like adding an employee that you didn't have to pay weekly. I went with an EZ Router with a vacuum hold down table. I went 5x10 but rarely do I use the full bed. 4x8 would do 95% of the jobs. I love it for cutting sign panels as I fall into the Gary Anderson thinking of "rarely should a sign be a square or rectangle". So nice when your CNC cuts a perfect circle or a sign with a lot of curves and angles. I recently did two jobs where I used up a lot of scrap Aluminum Composite Panels by cutting letters and logos. I had a bunch of 1' x 8' white scarp ACM and was able to use it all up cutting a bunch of bowling pins and the other was a gym where I cut some huge letters for the outside wall. There is a learning curve especially with the software. I felt that digital prints have become so cheap, wholesalers are usually one to two day shipping with one to two day service, and freight charges are so small it's not worth the hassle of buying a printer. The down side of my advice is a 4x4 router is going to be too small to be a real effective tool in the shop. A 4x8 router with a vacuum bed is going to accomplish a lot more for you. The bad part about that is $6500 isn't going to touch a 4x8 with vacuum hold down. Plus you'll need 3 phase power for the vacuum pump. I went with a rotary phase converter which works great. So basically, for a 4x8 US machine (the only way I'd go due to parts and service. Chinese machines won't have any support from the manufacturer and some distributors don't last as long as the warranty) vacuum pump, 3 phase converter, software, and dust collection if you don't have it already, you're probably going to be in the $20,000 range. When I bought mine a full printer/cutter, laminator, and software was about the same cost as the router. I'm glad I went with the router.

 

[bpfohler]

I've owned both and a laser engraver.. A cnc is a great compliment to vinyl signage and it opens up a world of opportunities. We've done hundreds of carved signs and when the sign business was slow we kept things busy by cutting out specialty pieces for contractor and cabinet makers.
The down side is you can't apply vinyl in the same area as your cutting, dust and wood chips don't mix with vinyl. Do you have the room for both is the big question!
+

 

[billsines]

After being in the sign business a short while, and seeing the amazing 3D signs in Signcraft magazine I bought a compressor and sandblasting equipment. I created a market for sandblasted signs because I showed samples and was genuinely excited about them. They quickly became the majority of my sign work. BTW, I'm also in a small town but I have a couple small cities 30 miles away. When CNC Routers started coming down in price I decided to go that route. I was tired of sweating in the sandblasting gear in the summer and freezing in the winter. The CNC made sense to me since I could let it do the work while I did something else. It was like adding an employee that you didn't have to pay weekly. I went with an EZ Router with a vacuum hold down table. I went 5x10 but rarely do I use the full bed. 4x8 would do 95% of the jobs. I love it for cutting sign panels as I fall into the Gary Anderson thinking of "rarely should a sign be a square or rectangle". So nice when your CNC cuts a perfect circle or a sign with a lot of curves and angles. I recently did two jobs where I used up a lot of scrap Aluminum Composite Panels by cutting letters and logos. I had a bunch of 1' x 8' white scarp ACM and was able to use it all up cutting a bunch of bowling pins and the other was a gym where I cut some huge letters for the outside wall. There is a learning curve especially with the software. I felt that digital prints have become so cheap, wholesalers are usually one to two day shipping with one to two day service, and freight charges are so small it's not worth the hassle of buying a printer. The down side of my advice is a 4x4 router is going to be too small to be a real effective tool in the shop. A 4x8 router with a vacuum bed is going to accomplish a lot more for you. The bad part about that is $6500 isn't going to touch a 4x8 with vacuum hold down. Plus you'll need 3 phase power for the vacuum pump. I went with a rotary phase converter which works great. So basically, for a 4x8 US machine (the only way I'd go due to parts and service. Chinese machines won't have any support from the manufacturer and some distributors don't last as long as the warranty) vacuum pump, 3 phase converter, software, and dust collection if you don't have it already, you're probably going to be in the $20,000 range. When I bought mine a full printer/cutter, laminator, and software was about the same cost as the router. I'm glad I went with the router.

How do you like your EZ Router?

 

[fixtureman]

I have a 4 X * Shopbot that has severed me very well. You can look on the forum for a good used one