Flexi ink limits

[SellersSign&Design]

So I decided to work on my profiles today to see if I could dial in a better red. Long story, but I worked on it all day and got nowhere. I know I need more ink, but for each pass setting in flexi there is either a "high ink" or "low ink" option. The high ink gives me nice reds, but the ink won't dry. Low ink dries but looks washed out. Where can I go in flexi to adjust the low ink setting so that it has a little bit more ink being laid down?

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

So I decided to work on my profiles today to see if I could dial in a better red. Long story, but I worked on it all day and got nowhere. I know I need more ink, but for each pass setting in flexi there is either a "high ink" or "low ink" option. The high ink gives me nice reds, but the ink won't dry. Low ink dries but looks washed out. Where can I go in flexi to adjust the low ink setting so that it has a little bit more ink being laid down?

Not sure on the Mutoh. But usually you can change advance settings or the heat settings. Couldn't you do HighInk and adjust the rest so that it dries. Even if you keep same heat and just adjust how fast it's printing it might slow it down enough. Just a thought. Rather then adjust the ink levels, keep them where the red is good and adjust the way it dries.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

Sorry I meant to add, the printer is an HP L25500. I guess I could try to run the heat up more, but it's already near the max and these printers have a lot of issues with heat killing the heads. I'm also running 12 pass, the next option is 16 pass which is significantly slower. High ink is just dumping way too much ink, you can feel the height of it with your finger. I don't understand why flexi gives you high and low, but nothing in between.

 

[Pauly]

Sorry I meant to add, the printer is an HP L25500. I guess I could try to run the heat up more, but it's already near the max and these printers have a lot of issues with heat killing the heads. I'm also running 12 pass, the next option is 16 pass which is significantly slower. High ink is just dumping way too much ink, you can feel the height of it with your finger. I don't understand why flexi gives you high and low, but nothing in between.

Never used flexi before. but is there an ink restrictions option where you can control how much ink you lay down? as in with out choosing the high and low option?

Can you some how measure the CMYK patches with a spectro and set where your maximum ink should be at as a percentage. If that makes any sense?

 

[dypinc]

What media are you printing on? I can't remember very many medias mostly fabric that we used High Ink on when we had our L25500.

What per channel limits and total ink limits are you setting with the Low Ink settings? Also what are you light ink splits settings?

 

[dypinc]

as in with out choosing the high and low option?

The high and low option is actually a printer setting. You might be able to force that with a RIP setting but that is all the RIP does with the high and low option.

 

[Pauly]

Is there an option to build a "media profile" not an ICC profile?
Media profile - ink restrictions, calibration, limits & ICC

 

[SellersSign&Design]

I am printing on reflective, both Nikkalite and 3M 680CR. I have not been able to find anything in Flexi that says anything about ink other than the high and low options. I tried to go through the ICC profile creation wizard today, but I hit a dead end when I went to print the linearization table for the printer to scan, and it defaults to 39" wide (I run 30" material). All of the reflective profiles I've tried (3M, Orafol and a generic one) don't work at all, the colors are washed out. The only profile I've found that somewhat works is the Briteline 2203.

 

[Pauly]

On flexi. Can you determine what size media is loaded on your printer? That would stop it from defaulting to something larger than the media.

 

[printhog]

I print Reflective almost exclusively. You'll never get good color control unless you know the intricacies of ink limiting. You need a densitometer to get the max density point, then you need to limit each ink. Reflective has so many production variables that color will and does shift roll to roll. I've never been able to get flexi to deliver properly on Reflective. The issue your describing sounds like total ink limit problems.. not something the ICC profile is built to address. Reflective films have such a strong grey component that they skew far outside the range ICC profiling can adjust.

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[printhog]

Pointers for color management on Reflective films.
1. Simple Ink limits.. typically these will be very low.. black and cyan will usually run under 45 and magenta and yellow will be around 60. Using a densitometer read the strip from 25 percent and up.. locate where the progression stops being similar.. I.e. if it bumps by 2 points then suddenly drops to 1.. that's the point where your at maximum density for that channel.
2. Fine ink limits.. you'll be back and forth to these. User your eye not a device. Be in good lighting conditions similar to the conditions expected for the product. Reflective films have heavy metamerism properties.

3. Linearization.. do this with your color device set for density, not spectrum. Print a new step wedge afterwards to confirm that your color is okay.
4. ICC profile. This is NOT NOT NOT for output use. It is only for screen proofing. Disable the ICC from your rip and run your machine with just the limits and linearization. The ICC will always try to convert to accommodate the gray point of the media and this will give washed out colors and yecch.

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[Customprinted]

So I decided to work on my profiles today to see if I could dial in a better red. Long story, but I worked on it all day and got nowhere. I know I need more ink, but for each pass setting in flexi there is either a "high ink" or "low ink" option. The high ink gives me nice reds, but the ink won't dry. Low ink dries but looks washed out. Where can I go in flexi to adjust the low ink setting so that it has a little bit more ink being laid down?

Whats the high ink / low ink option?? Where do you select that?? I ve done a few profiles and always had good results


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[Correct Color]

So I decided to work on my profiles today to see if I could dial in a better red. Long story, but I worked on it all day and got nowhere.

What I'd ask here in all seriousness is what that day was worth to you. That day and the materials that you used getting nowhere as well.

Reflective films have such a strong grey component that they skew far outside the range ICC profiling can adjust.

I profile reflective materials routinely on all different types of printers using all different RIP's and types of printers and ink -- all different brands of reflective as well -- and I can assure you this is not the case. "Grey component" isn't a term that relates to ICC profiles in the first place, but more to the point, while I have to hand measure reflective because my automatic chart readers have trouble recognizing its white point for reading purposes, all the ICC profile-making software I have ever used with reflective has recognized any reflective's white point I have tried, and has made a valid and functional profile.

Disable the ICC from your rip and run your machine with just the limits and linearization. The ICC will always try to convert to accommodate the gray point of the media and this will give washed out colors and yecch.

I have dozens of clients running reflective, some exclusively, and most in very color-critical environments, and all of them use Correct Color-generated ICC profiles. All of them get rich, full-gamut color and none of them have anything remotely resembling this issue.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

On flexi. Can you determine what size media is loaded on your printer? That would stop it from defaulting to something larger than the media.

I have Flexi set for the media, however it splits the print test apart and panels it which I'm pretty sure won't work. I can check the "fit to media" box and shrink it, I'm going to try that today.

I print Reflective almost exclusively. You'll never get good color control unless you know the intricacies of ink limiting. You need a densitometer to get the max density point, then you need to limit each ink. Reflective has so many production variables that color will and does shift roll to roll. I've never been able to get flexi to deliver properly on Reflective. The issue your describing sounds like total ink limit problems.. not something the ICC profile is built to address. Reflective films have such a strong grey component that they skew far outside the range ICC profiling can adjust.

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I know reflective adds another can of worms to the profiling game. But I have a profile that works well, it just needs a little bit more ink to be laid down to make me completely happy.

Whats the high ink / low ink option?? Where do you select that?? I ve done a few profiles and always had good results


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you send a job to production manager, there is a tab up top that takes you to all the settings for the profile, there is a drop down box that lets you select number of passes, bi directional or unidirectional and high or low ink.

What I'd ask here in all seriousness is what that day was worth to you. That day and the materials that you used getting nowhere as well.



I profile reflective materials routinely on all different types of printers using all different RIP's and types of printers and ink -- all different brands of reflective as well -- and I can assure you this is not the case. "Grey component" isn't a term that relates to ICC profiles in the first place, but more to the point, while I have to hand measure reflective because my automatic chart readers have trouble recognizing its white point for reading purposes, all the ICC profile-making software I have ever used with reflective has recognized any reflective's white point I have tried, and has made a valid and functional profile.



I have dozens of clients running reflective, some exclusively, and most in very color-critical environments, and all of them use Correct Color-generated ICC profiles. All of them get rich, full-gamut color and none of them have anything remotely resembling this issue.

There's no arguing the fact that I threw an entire day and a lot of material out the window. I realize having someone who specializes in color management come in and set up my machine would give me the best results. The problem is, being a one man operation that is extremely busy, I can't afford the cost or the down time to bring someone in to do that when the colors I'm already getting are really nice. All of my clients are happy, and I'm generally happy, but I'm always trying to do better. That's why I started messing with this, the reds I'm getting on reflective are good but not quite "ruby" red or "coke" red. I know if I could get a little bit more ink onto the material, it would be much closer. But so far I've only been able to get a little bit of ink, or a lot of it. No in between. When it dumps a lot of it, the reds are great. But you can wipe the ink off with a finger because it's so thick.

 

[dypinc]

That's why I started messing with this, the reds I'm getting on reflective are good but not quite "ruby" red or "coke" red. I know if I could get a little bit more ink onto the material, it would be much closer. But so far I've only been able to get a little bit of ink, or a lot of it. No in between. When it dumps a lot of it, the reds are great. But you can wipe the ink off with a finger because it's so thick.

Using the high ink setting, have you tried the maximum number of passes with highest drying temp and the cure temp as high as you can get it without damaging the media? Short of that you will have to set your ink limiting on the RIP to be able to use the High Ink setting. I would think using the Low Ink setting with Ink Limits set as high as possible for the media on the RIP should work as well.

Splitting up the targets shouldn't be a problem. What spectro are you using to read your targets?

 

[SellersSign&Design]

Using the high ink setting, have you tried the maximum number of passes with highest drying temp and the cure temp as high as you can get it without damaging the media? Short of that you will have to set your ink limiting on the RIP to be able to use the High Ink setting. I would think using the Low Ink setting with Ink Limits set as high as possible for the media on the RIP should work as well.

Splitting up the targets shouldn't be a problem. What spectro are you using to read your targets?

I haven't tried the highest settings for heat and passes, anything past 12 pass is very slow so I was trying to avoid that if possible. I agree with you though, I think the low ink setting with the limits slightly higher is what I'm needing. I just can't figure out how to change the ink limits in flexi. I was trying to use the on board I1 system yesterday.

 

[dypinc]

I haven't tried the highest settings for heat and passes, anything past 12 pass is very slow so I was trying to avoid that if possible. I agree with you though, I think the low ink setting with the limits slightly higher is what I'm needing. I just can't figure out how to change the ink limits in flexi. I was trying to use the on board I1 system yesterday.

The only way to change the ink limits is to create a linearization if you can edit an existing one.

For 30" media I am sure you're going to need any external spectro to do the linearization and profile.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

Will one of the I1 kits on eBay do the job? I messed with it some more today and have a red I'm happy with. I got it to work when I changed the rendering intents for vectors to "'no color correction". That made a huge difference and now the colors are much closer to Pantone matches. On a side note, I also found that the Nikkalite vinyl I was using to test settings was part of the problem. Black would not dry on it no matter what I did. I've used Nikkalite for a couple years and never had this problem, maybe it's just a bad roll.

 

[Correct Color]

The key to printing with solvent ink in any situation is getting the solvent to dry. And always that's going to come down to how much ink the media can handle, and how quickly.

In the case of Nikkalite, the bottom line answer is, "Not very much, not very fast."

To get a good red out of Nikkalite, basically what you need to do is everything you can to slow the machine way down, use the most passes you can, and the smallest dot size available to you. That should wind up on a Mutoh being 1440x1440, which will not be multi-dot, and at least 16 pass.

However it will be enough dots that you can set your individual ink limits high enough to get all the color this machine's got to give on this media. If you don't want to run this slow, don't use this material. That's the end of this story.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, in Flexi in Mutoh drivers, the "High Ink" setting switches to a larger dot size, so you definitely do not want to use it.

Also note that in profiling reflective, the more robust the linearization routing allowed by the RIP, the better results you'll get. Flexi is very non-robust, so unfortunately you do have that working against you.

I got it to work when I changed the rendering intents for vectors to "'no color correction". That made a huge difference and now the colors are much closer to Pantone matches.

Just note that that's absolutely the way you do not want to run. If it's working for you, it only means where you currently are isn't where you need to be for optimum results.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

I have been meaning to change my profile, but I'm actually running a L25500 latex machine, not the Mutoh. I'm guessing pretty much everything you said still holds true though, because getting the latex inks to dry is normally the biggest struggle