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Fonts not to use?

stephenj148

New Member
For starters, if this doesn't fall under general signmaking (or design) topics it can be moved..

Being a younger designer, sometimes I'll put up a design somewhere and the more experience person will gasp at the font I've used. However, how am I supposed to know, other than using the font, that it's not a good font to use. Where do younger designers and signmakers learn which font has bad baggage and not to use them. How do we know which fonts to use? I always struggle with it, and becoming more experience I find myself looking at a lot of typographic pieces (its always papyrus for me, I see it ALL OVER) and I do the same thing, "I can't believe they used that font!"

But in all honesty, how do we know?!
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Most freebie typefaces are the wrong ones...

Typefaces that are too decorative are USUALLY the wrong ones...

You need to develop an eye for good type by looking at good design. When starting out in design, do research on every job you are doing and look for examples of good design that apply to the project you are working on until you develop your eye to good design. Do not trust that you have good taste either.. post your designs for critique or ask someone who is very good at layout to look at your work.
 

signswi

New Member
Design school, experience, typography literature (magazines, blogs, forums...). As Rick says, developing your eye is extremely important. Takes a decade or so. Always be learning. A background in some art history helps as well, knowing how typefaces are used appropriately is largely a matter of art historical knowledge. Knowing the intent of the typographer is hugely important. Once you know how faces were intended to be used, and in what medium, only then can you start breaking those rules to good effect.
 

oldgoatroper

Roper of Goats. Old ones.
Fonts I never use....

Souvenir (long story)

Arial (The Scourge of Arial)

Comic Sans (Ban Comic Sans)

Papyrus

Bleeding Cowboy

<edit> Brush Script


Fonts I hardly ever use:

Avant Garde

Times New Roman

Helvetica


Fonts I use a lot:

Galliard

Arno

Myriad

Frutiger



Also, anytime I'm doing something that is essentially a warning/cautionary or road sign where visibility and readability is utmost, I use Highway Gothic / RoadGeek / Clearview
 

Marlene

New Member
you can pick up a lot of good info right here. Comic Sans, Brush Script, Papyrus are a few of the all time horrid font choices. you might wonder, "then why do I see them everywhere?". the reason is people with little to no experience are putting them out there. even on TV you will see them like the Pawn's Star sign they use for the show. it makes it all the more confusing as it seems like Brush Script would be good as the History Channel used it. Jon Aston posts some really good links so try doing a search for him as he may have posted a link to something that may be helpful.
 

stephenj148

New Member
I stay away from downloaded fonts, and stick to a lot of the fonts that oldgoatroper was mentioning, just thought this could be a good post to come back to and read up on when working on projects
 

Craig Sjoquist

New Member
It is not the font but how it is used.

Read Mike Stevens Mastering layout and Dan Antonelli's 2 books these will give a good understanding of layout and for business
 

TheSellOut

New Member
You sir, are dead wrong.

CO, I agree and disagree..attached is a clip of a menu I laid out a while back, that to this day...I still like even with the stigma that surrounds Papyrus.

Now a font like Jokerman...I just can't see a professional use for...
 

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oldgoatroper

Roper of Goats. Old ones.
Be wary of using Galliard in offset with CTP (Computer to Plate), it was made for film and with out the gain from film to plate, it is rather anemic.

Yes, I can see what you mean, but I've never used it that way... for me, always on signage, when I want to "upgrade" from TNR... the slightly thinner strokes look fine at 2 or 3 inches printed on coro. Most people just assume its "that Times font", but it just has a classier feel to it.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
CO, I agree and disagree..attached is a clip of a menu I laid out a while back, that to this day...I still like even with the stigma that surrounds Papyrus.

Now a font like Jokerman...I just can't see a professional use for...
Kinda agree with you. :wink:

It all depends on how it's placed, the weight you give it and if you've used it correctly for the right kind of feel. It's not always bad taste to use some of these usually considered bad fonts, just not to overuse them in the wrong envirnment.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
stephenj148 said:
Being a younger designer, sometimes I'll put up a design somewhere and the more experience person will gasp at the font I've used. However, how am I supposed to know, other than using the font, that it's not a good font to use.

Here's my 2¢.

As overly simplistic as it sounds, you just need to be able to visibly judge whether the design looks right or not. It's not just the type either. The tracking, line spacing, placement on the page or display area and its combination with other elements all make or break the look of it.

Most people do not have the eye needed for designing with type. You need to love type. A strong natural talent will allow you to be brave and try things few others were willing to do.

Find signs you think look great and try to deconstruct the elements that make them successful.

Legibility is extremely critical with outdoor "environmental" design. Signs, billboards, outdoor posters, vehicle wraps and other "out of home" advertising elements all require legibility ahead of decorative effect. If you can't read the design from an acceptable minimum distance then the design sucks. Simple as that.

Additionally, you have to be aware of how lighted (or non-lit) signs will look at night time. Certain effects that work in daylight may cause problems at night. For example, a back-lit sign face featuring dark letters with a white outline may look nice in daylight, but that white outline may cause the dark letters to literally disappear when viewed from the street due to overglow. Unfortunately some of those try/fail lessons can only be learned from experience.

Learning about type and reading up on new typefaces and typeface trends will help with some design choices. Buy or rent the documentary Helvetica on Blu-ray or DVD. There's some excellent stuff in there about type and the importance of design in general.

Visit the typophile.com forum. You'll see a lot of comments on what not to do with type.

You really really have to be careful when combining different typefaces in the same layout. Some combinations are visually toxic, like motor oil poured onto a bowl of ice cream. Here's a nausea-inducing one: Brush Script, Serpentine Bold and Arial Black together. Visual garbage! I know a guy who used to put that combination onto banners frequently.

A long time ago I really liked the typeface Papyrus (the Letraset Fontek version of it, not the horrible MS Office cut of it). But it's been so overused, in part because of its availability. The movie Avatar didn't help matters, but at least they used the Letraset version of Papyrus in those subtitles.

I hate Arial with a passion and will only use it when a project specifically requires it. I designed a gate entry sign for an US Air Force Base a few years ago. Their design standard required Arial. So be it.

I think HTF Gotham is a great typeface. I also think Tobias Frere-Jones is one of the most gifted type designers currently in that industry. Sadly Gotham is becoming so over-used that it may fall victim to the same love/hate syndrome that affects Helvetica.

Myriad and Trajan are also attractive typefaces that are very over-used, due in part through their bundling in Adobe applications. Myriad is all over any Wal-Mart store. Lots of movie posters and other things use Trajan.

Not all freebie fonts are bad. A good eye for type can tell the difference. There's a few good faces at Font Squirrel. I think Titillium Text is an attractive, somewhat techie looking face. I'm not as fond of Google's open source web fonts.

I have loved drawing letters and other graphical stuff (along with illustrational subjects) since I was a little kid. I have numerous Letraset press on type books that date back to the early 1980s. If I knew enough about Python scripting and had lots of spare time I'd probably design a few digital typefaces of my own. It's much easier to just draw an "ad word" and vectorize it.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Here's my 2¢.

As overly simplistic as it sounds, you just need to be able to visibly judge whether the design looks right or not. It's not just the type either. The tracking, line spacing, placement on the page or display area and its combination with other elements all make or break the look of it.

Most people do not have the eye needed for designing with type. You need to love type. A strong natural talent will allow you to be brave and try things few others were willing to do.

Find signs you think look great and try to deconstruct the elements that make them successful.

Legibility is extremely critical with outdoor "environmental" design. Signs, billboards, outdoor posters, vehicle wraps and other "out of home" advertising elements all require legibility ahead of decorative effect. If you can't read the design from an acceptable minimum distance then the design sucks. Simple as that.

Additionally, you have to be aware of how lighted (or non-lit) signs will look at night time. Certain effects that work in daylight may cause problems at night. For example, a back-lit sign face featuring dark letters with a white outline may look nice in daylight, but that white outline may cause the dark letters to literally disappear when viewed from the street due to overglow. Unfortunately some of those try/fail lessons can only be learned from experience.

Learning about type and reading up on new typefaces and typeface trends will help with some design choices. Buy or rent the documentary Helvetica on Blu-ray or DVD. There's some excellent stuff in there about type and the importance of design in general.

Visit the typophile.com forum. You'll see a lot of comments on what not to do with type.

You really really have to be careful when combining different typefaces in the same layout. Some combinations are visually toxic, like motor oil poured onto a bowl of ice cream. Here's a nausea-inducing one: Brush Script, Serpentine Bold and Arial Black together. Visual garbage! I know a guy who used to put that combination onto banners frequently.

A long time ago I really liked the typeface Papyrus (the Letraset Fontek version of it, not the horrible MS Office cut of it). But it's been so overused, in part because of its availability. The movie Avatar didn't help matters, but at least they used the Letraset version of Papyrus in those subtitles.

I hate Arial with a passion and will only use it when a project specifically requires it. I designed a gate entry sign for an US Air Force Base a few years ago. Their design standard required Arial. So be it.

I think HTF Gotham is a great typeface. I also think Tobias Frere-Jones is one of the most gifted type designers currently in that industry. Sadly Gotham is becoming so over-used that it may fall victim to the same love/hate syndrome that affects Helvetica.

Myriad and Trajan are also attractive typefaces that are very over-used, due in part through their bundling in Adobe applications. Myriad is all over any Wal-Mart store. Lots of movie posters and other things use Trajan.

Not all freebie fonts are bad. A good eye for type can tell the difference. There's a few good faces at Font Squirrel. I think Titillium Text is an attractive, somewhat techie looking face. I'm not as fond of Google's open source web fonts.

I have loved drawing letters and other graphical stuff (along with illustrational subjects) since I was a little kid. I have numerous Letraset press on type books that date back to the early 1980s. If I knew enough about Python scripting and had lots of spare time I'd probably design a few digital typefaces of my own. It's much easier to just draw an "ad word" and vectorize it.


Very well written......and I read every word. :goodpost:
 

Salmoneye

New Member
I think that a lot of fonts are disliked by designers because they become overused and common; often times they become overused and common because they are visually stimulating, attractive, legible.... I have used papyrus, copperplate, brush script and even comic sans in what I felt were very attractive layouts but I try to use them very sparingly as Papyrus seen once might fit very nicely but if it is seen ten times around town it quickly looses it's shimmer.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Myriad and Trajan are also attractive typefaces that are very over-used, due in part through their bundling in Adobe applications. Myriad is all over any Wal-Mart store. Lots of movie posters and other things use Trajan.

Another, I don't want to say issue but...., thing with Myriad from the aspect of what I do more then the rest of y'all is it is perhaps one of the best fonts for embroidery at almost any size. If someone has a real specialty font at too small of a size, Myriad is almost automatically the default font to use.

I'm sure that makes y'all cringe at the thought of it getting overused even more. There have been some good additions to microfonts that work well for what I do, but it still doesn't "work" like Myriad.
 

Locals Find!

New Member
As someone who defaults to arial black a lot for my designs, due to legibility (and not knowing any better) can someone suggest some books that might be good to learn more about picking the right fonts without having to spend hours searching through them and trying each one out?
 
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