HP 365 - Not made for traffic reflective printing? (also, need printer suggestions)

[TheBarricade]

We have had our Latex 365 printer for 1.5 years; printed for a total of 230 hours and 600 prints.

Recently we have been running into a host of issues, the most recent being the 365 not printing the exact size for a traffic sign (so, it prints 36.0625 instead of 36). And after the tech did a bunch of tests and part replacement, the printer now refuses to recognize/load our DG 4000 reflective orange.

The level 3 HP tech explained that after a year and a half, it is common for the 365 to start having issues if it is mainly used with reflective AND that the 365 is not really built to handle reflective for a long period of time. Needless to say, that was a pretty discouraging response. Have any of you heard of this kind of issue with the 365?

Unfortunately, 3M only warranties traffic control signs made on an HP 360/365/370/375, HP Latex 1500, Durst Rho 163 TS/HS, or EFI H1625 RS UV. So we are stuck with those unless we switch to Avery reflective, which is another possibility.

Is there a printer that is more or less made for reflective/traffic control signs?

 

[RaymondLoewy]

The Avery Traffic Jet series.

 

[balstestrat]

The level 3 HP tech explained that after a year and a half, it is common for the 365 to start having issues if it is mainly used with reflective AND that the 365 is not really built to handle reflective for a long period of time.

What in the world........ This is just plain bullshit. There is simply no reason for this to be true.
And if you have only done "600 prints", it's like brand new, barely used.

Let me know exactly the issues you are having except the size issue, which can be dealt with to a certain spec but not to 0.000001 etc.
How does it not load it? Where does it stop?

 

[TheBarricade]

The Avery Traffic Jet series.

Thank you for your suggestion. Have you used this printer at all? If so, how is it?

 

[RaymondLoewy]

Thank you for your suggestion. Have you used this printer at all? If so, how is it?

I used to operate two of the 64" Mutoh versions, they were great machines. You are limited to Flexi as far as RIPs go, but it isn't bad.

 

[TheBarricade]

What in the world........ This is just plain bullshit. There is simply no reason for this to be true.
And if you have only done "600 prints", it's like brand new, barely used.

Let me know exactly the issues you are having except the size issue, which can be dealt with to a certain spec but not to 0.000001 etc.
How does it not load it? Where does it stop?

Yeah idk to be honest...

Ok, so as far as loading goes--it'll load a basic white vinyl non-reflective just fine. For the 4000 series reflective, the following happens (tests suggested by HP level 3 tech):

OMAS disabled in substrate, enabled in service menu
Regular load: After successful width, skew, and direction tests; unloads itself at "checking substrate". Basically it goes through the checks and then drops the substrate out of the feed and says "roll load canceled"
Assisted Manual Load: Completed load but says “Width: 38.5” on a 36” substrate.

OMAS disabled in substrate, disabled in service menu
Same as above
--
For the size issue, it is both on reflective and non-reflective and is consistent with every print. As the size of the printed square is increased, so is the discrepancy. There is a 1/32nd of an inch discrepancy on a 15"x15" square and it goes up from there. They are to a point where they've replaced literally everything in the printer and the next, incredibly arduous, step is to replace the main drive roller.
--
With these 2 issues, we have been out of commission for a week and a half.

 

[TheBarricade]

I used to operate two of the 64" Mutoh versions, they were great machines. You are limited to Flexi as far as RIPs go, but it isn't bad.

Same with this printer, I've been working with Flexi traffic sign edition. Not a huge issue although I've heard Onyx is better.

I'll look into Mutohs. Thank you for the suggestion!

 

[balstestrat]

Yeah idk to be honest...

Ok, so as far as loading goes--it'll load a basic white vinyl non-reflective just fine. For the 4000 series reflective, the following happens (tests suggested by HP level 3 tech):

OMAS disabled in substrate, enabled in service menu
Regular load: After successful width, skew, and direction tests; unloads itself at "checking substrate". Basically it goes through the checks and then drops the substrate out of the feed and says "roll load canceled"
Assisted Manual Load: Completed load but says “Width: 38.5” on a 36” substrate.

OMAS disabled in substrate, disabled in service menu
Same as above
--
For the size issue, it is both on reflective and non-reflective and is consistent with every print. As the size of the printed square is increased, so is the discrepancy. There is a 1/32nd of an inch discrepancy on a 15"x15" square and it goes up from there. They are to a point where they've replaced literally everything in the printer and the next, incredibly arduous, step is to replace the main drive roller.
--
With these 2 issues, we have been out of commission for a week and a half.

Okay so... This loading issue is strange. What parts did they replace? You must have a list of the work right?
I would try cleaning the line sensor and calibrating that.
https://hplatexknowledgecenter.com/storage/app/uploads/public/5bd/71c/796/5bd71c7962280827239833.pdf
After you are done cleaning you can load just regular self-adhesive vinyl BUT select Generic Paper.
You seem to have access to service menu so after that do 4.3.1 Line Sensor calibration and just execute that. At the end you can cancel the printhead alignment, no need to do that.

Is it a big thing if you have to select the Assisted manual load? Personally I don't see it being issue, some people actually only use that.

The fact that it measures the reflective width wrong is OK. It just doesn't read it correctly and it's normal.
But you know the position and width and it needs to be entered in the settings manually.

For the output size, you have done the manual advance calibration where it prints the chart and you have to choose the value that has the lightest bar, correct? You have OMAS enabled for the normal non-reflective materials correct?
If that didn't help and the size is always off that much you can compensate that in Flexi pretty easy.
http://flexihelp.saicloud.com/en/Content/4_Production/Production Manager/Using Output Size Compensation.htm

If you have to pay for it, do not replace the main drive roller. You can also try to calibrate that if it hasn't been done.

 

[unclebun]

Do the HP printers have an encoding strip? This kind of sounds like a dirty encoding strip problem.

 

[balstestrat]

Do the HP printers have an encoding strip? This kind of sounds like a dirty encoding strip problem.

It would most likely produce different (image quality) issues as well. So not likely.

 

[Joe House]

The level 3 HP tech explained that after a year and a half, it is common for the 365 to start having issues if it is mainly used with reflective AND that the 365 is not really built to handle reflective for a long period of time. Needless to say, that was a pretty discouraging response. Have any of you heard of this kind of issue with the 365?

Unfortunately, I think this is just a lazy tech answer. We have quite a few customers that primarily print on reflective and only do street/highway signage and have no problems. Also, most of them are using the manual load as the sensor rarely measures correctly. When I train them I just tell them to go that route when printing on reflective. And if it's consistent, I'd recommend as balstestrat did to do the output size compensation in Flexi for your length issues. When it's inconsistent, it's a lot harder to figure out and fix.

Good Luck,

 

[ikarasu]

We've done hundreds of rolls on ours and it isn't having issues.

For the size fix you need to do a manual calibration after its on the take up reel. We still get a few that's a bit off...but it's a traffic. Sign. If the borders an eight of an inch off its not too big of a deal.

I'd say find a new tech. The only difference between reflective and regular material is Weight. We had to change the motor once and that's it. I think it was a $200ish repair

 

[TheBarricade]

Do the HP printers have an encoding strip? This kind of sounds like a dirty encoding strip problem.

They do and it's been cleaned during this entire "trying to fix it" process

 

[TheBarricade]

Unfortunately, I think this is just a lazy tech answer. We have quite a few customers that primarily print on reflective and only do street/highway signage and have no problems. Also, most of them are using the manual load as the sensor rarely measures correctly. When I train them I just tell them to go that route when printing on reflective. And if it's consistent, I'd recommend as balstestrat did to do the output size compensation in Flexi for your length issues. When it's inconsistent, it's a lot harder to figure out and fix.

Good Luck,

A lazy tech? No way! /s

I will do the manual load from here on out. My 365 never prints directly center despite being laid out center in Flexi. Basically a 35" traffic border on a 36" roll of sheeting prints about 1/8 off from center (if I remember correctly). Maybe it's from measuring inaccurately? Anyway, I'll see what manual load does.

 

[TheBarricade]

We've done hundreds of rolls on ours and it isn't having issues.

For the size fix you need to do a manual calibration after its on the take up reel. We still get a few that's a bit off...but it's a traffic. Sign. If the borders an eight of an inch off its not too big of a deal.

I'd say find a new tech. The only difference between reflective and regular material is Weight. We had to change the motor once and that's it. I think it was a $200ish repair

The concern wasn't really the amount it was off, but that it used to be correct and got progressively worse over time. Unfortunately, I am not sure I have a choice of the level 3 tech I get from HP, but I will do my best...

 

[TheBarricade]

Okay so... This loading issue is strange. What parts did they replace? You must have a list of the work right?
I would try cleaning the line sensor and calibrating that.
https://hplatexknowledgecenter.com/storage/app/uploads/public/5bd/71c/796/5bd71c7962280827239833.pdf
After you are done cleaning you can load just regular self-adhesive vinyl BUT select Generic Paper.
You seem to have access to service menu so after that do 4.3.1 Line Sensor calibration and just execute that. At the end you can cancel the printhead alignment, no need to do that.

Is it a big thing if you have to select the Assisted manual load? Personally I don't see it being issue, some people actually only use that.

The fact that it measures the reflective width wrong is OK. It just doesn't read it correctly and it's normal.
But you know the position and width and it needs to be entered in the settings manually.

For the output size, you have done the manual advance calibration where it prints the chart and you have to choose the value that has the lightest bar, correct? You have OMAS enabled for the normal non-reflective materials correct?
If that didn't help and the size is always off that much you can compensate that in Flexi pretty easy.
http://flexihelp.saicloud.com/en/Content/4_Production/Production Manager/Using Output Size Compensation.htm

If you have to pay for it, do not replace the main drive roller. You can also try to calibrate that if it hasn't been done.

Ok, so I still have to do a line sensor calibration, but I did do the manual advance calibration and ended up having to change the value to -2. It unfortunately did not alleviate the issue. And also, for the Flexi sign adjustment, will it account for the discrepancy changing depending on image size? So, for example--the 10"x10" printed border is off by 1/32nd, 20"x20" off by 1/16th, 40"x40" off by 1/8th and so forth.

Oh and OMAS is disabled for reflective and enabled for non-reflective.

 

[ikarasu]

Do you guys down south not have your choice of techs? Over here our suppliers support the printers. Grimco tech is who we use.... But we have a choice of like 10 different suppliers if we wanted to.

 

[balstestrat]

Ok, so I still have to do a line sensor calibration, but I did do the manual advance calibration and ended up having to change the value to -2. It unfortunately did not alleviate the issue. And also, for the Flexi sign adjustment, will it account for the discrepancy changing depending on image size? So, for example--the 10"x10" printed border is off by 1/32nd, 20"x20" off by 1/16th, 40"x40" off by 1/8th and so forth.

Oh and OMAS is disabled for reflective and enabled for non-reflective.

Yes this is how the compensation works because it's % value. So it will scale just like that.

 

[TheBarricade]

Do you guys down south not have your choice of techs? Over here our suppliers support the printers. Grimco tech is who we use.... But we have a choice of like 10 different suppliers if we wanted to.

We also have a Grimco tech that I was working with; he had me adjust temperature, vacuum, and advance in the substrate menu. When it ultimately didn't work, he suggested I contact HP which I was already working with level 3 HP support by that point. How do you get tech support from different suppliers? Wouldn't you need to have bought the printer from them to get support?

 

[ikarasu]

No. It works a bit differently in Canada. We don't have hp techs here.... All of our support comes from suppliers.... From easy stuff to complete swapouts. When grimco first entered canada they tried to do it the way us does where it's hp that supports their customers... And apprently it backfired. Over here were so used to having techs available to do it personally.


I've used 3-4 different suppliers. Our grimco tech is great... But there was a time.when they had one.... And he'd be on vacation so they flew a tech in from 500 miles away and it was a few days wait. So we went to a diff supplier.... Over here you can goto anyone, whether you bought the printer or not. Heck... I've purchased parts straight from grimco and did my own repairs.... They even allow.me to call and walk me through it for free.... It's great!

I buy them pizza everytime they come work on the machine because we appreciate them so much. Having a personal relationship with your tech is great! We haven't had to deal with hp for anything besides some early head replacements which was terrible, I can't imagine dealing with them for real tech work.


Ink though... When we bought from our second supplier who didn't sell us the printer.... we had to contact hp, sign a form saying we approached them and They did not approach us... Explain why we wanted to buy ink from them.... Etc.