HP latex 310 Print Quality? Grainy?

[xkellyx]

We have a brand new hp latex 310 which was installed a few weeks ago. Out of the box it came with three defective print heads. Hp sent out new ones but I have some serious concerns about the print quality.

This is is our first wide format printer, so the possibility that the issue is user error is high, however we do print digitally daily so we arent totally new to this. Also, before I start calling HP I Want to be sure my that my expectations are reasonable.

He firmware is up-to-date. We've tried several brands of media, loaded the profiles, completed print head alignments, adjusted the temp and optimizer. We have an i1pro and I performed the calibration this morning,and the results are, lackluster.

We we want to print on a self adhesive vinyl mostly for decal/sticker printing. We are using flexi 12 cloud as the rip and have set the resolution as high as it will go and increased the passes to 18.

The picture attached is of a print from this afternoon. Note the high amount of grain, the image looks like it was over sharpened. Also note the line quality. This file was created in illustrator, and is a vector. Is this the best this machine can do? Should we expect this level of grain on all our prints?

Any input put would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Suz]

Have you tried 16 pass yet? Perhaps the ink is too thick.

 

[greysquirrel]

are you using onyx? onyx may default to lower resolution output depending on the profile being used...it can do this without you realizing it

go into media manager, select profile and click edit...make sure it defaults to 600dpi in lieu of 300

 

[P Wagner]

We have a brand new hp latex 310 which was installed a few weeks ago. Out of the box it came with three defective print heads. Hp sent out new ones but I have some serious concerns about the print quality.

This is is our first wide format printer, so the possibility that the issue is user error is high, however we do print digitally daily so we arent totally new to this. Also, before I start calling HP I Want to be sure my that my expectations are reasonable.

He firmware is up-to-date. We've tried several brands of media, loaded the profiles, completed print head alignments, adjusted the temp and optimizer. We have an i1pro and I performed the calibration this morning,and the results are, lackluster.

We we want to print on a self adhesive vinyl mostly for decal/sticker printing. We are using flexi 12 cloud as the rip and have set the resolution as high as it will go and increased the passes to 18.

The picture attached is of a print from this afternoon. Note the high amount of grain, the image looks like it was over sharpened. Also note the line quality. This file was created in illustrator, and is a vector. Is this the best this machine can do? Should we expect this level of grain on all our prints?

Any input put would be greatly appreciated.

The short answer is that no, you should not be seeing grainy output with the HP Latex printers. Without having all of the information that may be needed to troubleshoot this, here are some initial thoughts:

a) Make sure that the firmware is current - that means version 00.06.02.12 as of today. This firmware was released just last week, and at that time, it was not on the auto-update servers that are accessible directly from the printer, but it is available from this link:
http://h20565.www2.hp.com/hpsc/swd/public/readIndex?sp4ts.oid=6838362&lang=en&cc=us

b) Regarding the line quality - the HP Latex printers receive a raster data set from the RIP. Make sure that the Print Mode being used is rendering that at 600 ppi (may be referred to as dpi in the RIP) and not a lower resolution.

c) The grain appears to be coalescence, which can happen when an improper combination of ink/ optimizer/ heat/ time are being used for the media that is being imaged.

You mention that the media is SAV (self-adhesive vinyl) that is being used for decal applications. From that, I would assume that it is not a backlit vinyl, but is relatively opaque. Assuming that is the case of the film you're using, your pass count should be no higher than 12, and possibly lower. We typically profile frontlit SAV at pass counts between 6 and 12, with higher ink loads possible at the higher counts (10 and 12) versus lower passes. You should not be changing the pass counts in a pre-built media profile without re-building the entire print mode, including a new ICC profile. On the 310 and 330 machines, there is no on-board option for this, although it can be done with an off-board measurement instrument.

At this point, my advice would be to revert to a known good media preset, preferably one that has been freshly pulled down from the HP Media Solutions Locator. There are some things that can be done to modify this when needed, such as temperature adjustments, and Inter-Pass Delay, but you should never change the pass count on a canned (pre-built) media preset, as this will invalidate it (this is the case with all printers, not only Latex machines).

d) You should also be aware of the HP Latex Knowledge Center site:
http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/HP-Latex-Knowledge-Center/ct-p/HPLatexKnowledgeCenter
It contains a lot of training video content, and can serve as a direct conduit between users and HP support staff in EMEA and USA.

The bottom line is that the HP Latex machines are widely recognized for their superior image quality (evidenced by the recent SGIA Product of the Year award for one of the Latex 300 Series machines):
https://www.sgia.org/expo/2015/product-year-winners

Paul

 

[jigsaw]

Hi, I to installed a 310 2 weeks ago, so far managed to print a handful of stickers . my ecosol is soooo much easier to use,
got he same results as you on Image perfect SAV but other media so far s ok.

 

[FrankW]

One reason for grainy print can be that the feed setting is wrong. This could specially be the problem if the side margins of the print are ok, but the front and back margins are unsharp.

You will find a test print in Settings - Image quality maintenance - Substrate advance calib - Print adjustment plot. Choose the value below the column with the lightest grey and set it in the profile, advanced settings.

The Latex 310, in opposite to the latex 360, do not have an automatic advancement sensor.

 

[qmr55]

1st problem-- using flexi as your rip...

Make sure vertical correction is turned OFF (if the 310 even has it, i dont know)


why buy the 310 and not the 360 or 370?

 

[xkellyx]

Have you tried 16 pass yet? Perhaps the ink is too thick.

Not Yet. It's on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[xkellyx]

are you using onyx? onyx may default to lower resolution output depending on the profile being used...it can do this without you realizing it

go into media manager, select profile and click edit...make sure it defaults to 600dpi in lieu of 300

No, at the moment we are using Flexi Cloud. However, I have ensured that the DPI is set at 600. Thank you!

 

[xkellyx]

The short answer is that no, you should not be seeing grainy output with the HP Latex printers. Without having all of the information that may be needed to troubleshoot this, here are some initial thoughts:

a) Make sure that the firmware is current - that means version 00.06.02.12 as of today. This firmware was released just last week, and at that time, it was not on the auto-update servers that are accessible directly from the printer, but it is available from this link:
http://h20565.www2.hp.com/hpsc/swd/public/readIndex?sp4ts.oid=6838362&lang=en&cc=us

b) Regarding the line quality - the HP Latex printers receive a raster data set from the RIP. Make sure that the Print Mode being used is rendering that at 600 ppi (may be referred to as dpi in the RIP) and not a lower resolution.

c) The grain appears to be coalescence, which can happen when an improper combination of ink/ optimizer/ heat/ time are being used for the media that is being imaged.

You mention that the media is SAV (self-adhesive vinyl) that is being used for decal applications. From that, I would assume that it is not a backlit vinyl, but is relatively opaque. Assuming that is the case of the film you're using, your pass count should be no higher than 12, and possibly lower. We typically profile frontlit SAV at pass counts between 6 and 12, with higher ink loads possible at the higher counts (10 and 12) versus lower passes. You should not be changing the pass counts in a pre-built media profile without re-building the entire print mode, including a new ICC profile. On the 310 and 330 machines, there is no on-board option for this, although it can be done with an off-board measurement instrument.

At this point, my advice would be to revert to a known good media preset, preferably one that has been freshly pulled down from the HP Media Solutions Locator. There are some things that can be done to modify this when needed, such as temperature adjustments, and Inter-Pass Delay, but you should never change the pass count on a canned (pre-built) media preset, as this will invalidate it (this is the case with all printers, not only Latex machines).

d) You should also be aware of the HP Latex Knowledge Center site:
http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/HP-Latex-Knowledge-Center/ct-p/HPLatexKnowledgeCenter
It contains a lot of training video content, and can serve as a direct conduit between users and HP support staff in EMEA and USA.

The bottom line is that the HP Latex machines are widely recognized for their superior image quality (evidenced by the recent SGIA Product of the Year award for one of the Latex 300 Series machines):
https://www.sgia.org/expo/2015/product-year-winners

Paul

Paul,
Thank you for such a comprehensive response. I have taken your advice and updated the firmware via the link provided. I was at version .10, and the latest is .12. I was unaware that there was a lag between the auto update and the hp website.

I can confirm that the settings in the RIP are at 600 dpi.

I tried several of the pre-set profiles, and had similar results. However, I did not change the pass settings on any of these. I created a new profile using my i1Pro.

I am going to run some more test. Thank you again for taking the time.

 

[xkellyx]

Flexi is what our REP suggested. However, with the cloud subscription, I am not tied to it, so if it really is the issue I have no problem finding another solution. What would be your suggestion? Most of our printing, up until now, has been done on xerox digital presses, so I am familiar with the basics of RIPS like CREO and Fiery. However, as you can tell my knowledge of wide format is lacking.

I saw the videos and help topics on the HP site, however, vertical correction is not an option as far as I can tell on the 310.

When we were researching machines, we were first looking at the Rolands, however, our rep talked us out of the Roland and into the HP Latex series. Based on our conversations on what we wanted to be able to do with the machine he suggested that the 310 would be perfect.

Please keep in mind that we are not a sign shop, and don't intend to be one. We are not looking to print on a large variety of media. Our main business is custom pin back buttons. We produce millions of them a year. Being able to roll print large orders and throw them on to a plotter to be cut is a big time and materials saver for us. I have had success with printing on HP Universal Coated Paper. However, our clients often request decals, and since we now a machine that is capable, it would be foolish to not leverage it as much as possible.

However, I have yet to find SAV that prints well enough for me to offer to our clients. We have tried:
BriteLine Duration IM3203
General Formulations 201/203
Orajet 3165
Instant One Media, Both their Cast/Calendared
ORACAL 3651RA
As well as the media kit that came with the machine.

1st problem-- using flexi as your rip...

Make sure vertical correction is turned OFF (if the 310 even has it, i dont know)


why buy the 310 and not the 360 or 370?

 

[P Wagner]

Paul,
Thank you for such a comprehensive response. I have taken your advice and updated the firmware via the link provided. I was at version .10, and the latest is .12. I was unaware that there was a lag between the auto update and the hp website.

I can confirm that the settings in the RIP are at 600 dpi.

I tried several of the pre-set profiles, and had similar results. However, I did not change the pass settings on any of these. I created a new profile using my i1Pro.

I am going to run some more test. Thank you again for taking the time.

For these tests, I am suggesting that you download and install a complete Media Profile, for the 300 series, these are typically packaged in the OMS file format. The OMS file should include everything needed to print on the media, inside one or more Print Modes. This would include the ICC profile component.

You should be able to navigate to the HP Media Solutions Locator and pull down one or more OMS files for the media to be tested. OMS files are RIP agnostic, and are universal across the various models in the Latex 300 series printers. Here is the link to the HP Media Solutions Locator site (see attachment for more on the Media Solutions Locator):
https://ssl.www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/2013/ga/MediaLocator/home.html

The Oracal 3164 media is listed and an OMS file is available on the HP Media Solutions Locator site. That Media Preset contains a print mode that has been built to print on the 310 at 10 pass, 110 percent ink load, and it contains the ICC for that mode. For testing purposes, I would suggest downloading and installing that OMS and testing using the ICC that it contains, rather than building your own, at least for testing purposes. While I am a staunch advocate for the benefits of custom profiles, I would discourage their use in favor of canned (pre-built) profiles while troubleshooting. The reason for this is to minimize the number of potential variables that might be responsible for the issue.

Once you pull down the OMS file to the computer, it is moved over to the printer and installed there via the Embedded Web Server (EWS) browser-based interface.

Paul

 

[P Wagner]

Have you tried 16 pass yet? Perhaps the ink is too thick.
Not Yet. It's on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Again, this is a potential problem. Media Presets are built for a specific pass count(s), you should never change the pass count to one that the Preset has not been built for, without creating an entirely new print mode from scratch, at the desired pass count. On the HP Latex 360/ 370 that entire procedure takes about 45 minutes (best case). On the other 300 series machines, it will take a bit longer as the ICC needs to be built in a 3rd-party app.

Paul

 

[Correct Color]

Kelly,

A couple things:

First and foremost is that yes, there is a certain amount of mid-tone graininess baked right into the cake with all the 300 series HP's.

The reason for that is the way the light/dark ink splits are set in the contone settings that are unfortunately, not changeable, as they are in virtually every other large format printer -- dependent on RIP, of course.

I've done some pretty extensive testing on this, and I've even spoken to more than a few folks at HP about it. It depends on just what quality level you're looking for as to whether you see it as an issue or not. But it's there. I have one client who had several HP 26500's which I had profiled. He replaced them with 360's, and when I profiled the first 360 and laid the first test print side-by-side with one from a 26500, he immediately noticed the difference in grain in the midtone greys, in particular. (And in this regard, there's no difference between the 310 and the 360.)

Again, unfortunately, this is built in and unchangeable. It's a shame too, because the machine has the capability to do much better.

However, I don't think that is all of your problem.

From the posted image, it looks to me like you've got a printhead alignment issue more than anything else.

It appears from what I can see that you're not hitting dead-on on both up and down and left and right. And if you're new to large format printing, understand that it takes being off very, very little to get exactly the kind of graininess that I'm seeing in the photo -- which, to me looks more like alignment graininess than either coalescence or the inherent graininess that is unavoidable in the contone setup of these machines.

I'm pretty certain that's what's going on, but the image you've shown isn't really detailed enough to see for certain. If you'd like to send me a higher resolution image, I should be able to say for sure.

Also just for the record note that changing resolution doesn't affect this type of graininess in large format printing. Regardless of resolution, you're still printing with the same sized dots. That's the reason you need light inks.



Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[qmr55]

Flexi is what our REP suggested. However, with the cloud subscription, I am not tied to it, so if it really is the issue I have no problem finding another solution. What would be your suggestion? Most of our printing, up until now, has been done on xerox digital presses, so I am familiar with the basics of RIPS like CREO and Fiery. However, as you can tell my knowledge of wide format is lacking.

I saw the videos and help topics on the HP site, however, vertical correction is not an option as far as I can tell on the 310.

When we were researching machines, we were first looking at the Rolands, however, our rep talked us out of the Roland and into the HP Latex series. Based on our conversations on what we wanted to be able to do with the machine he suggested that the 310 would be perfect.

Please keep in mind that we are not a sign shop, and don't intend to be one. We are not looking to print on a large variety of media. Our main business is custom pin back buttons. We produce millions of them a year. Being able to roll print large orders and throw them on to a plotter to be cut is a big time and materials saver for us. I have had success with printing on HP Universal Coated Paper. However, our clients often request decals, and since we now a machine that is capable, it would be foolish to not leverage it as much as possible.

However, I have yet to find SAV that prints well enough for me to offer to our clients. We have tried:
BriteLine Duration IM3203
General Formulations 201/203
Orajet 3165
Instant One Media, Both their Cast/Calendared
ORACAL 3651RA
As well as the media kit that came with the machine.

Caldera is the only rip I would ever suggest. Light and day difference between Caldera and Flexi rip. Look into it some and give them a call, get a trial.

As far as your issue, that looks 100% to be an alignment issue. That is why I mentioned vertical correction, was not sure it was possible on 310. I'd keep looking at the heads and run some more alignment tests. That looks to be the issue there.

 

[xkellyx]

Attached are the results I am seeing after running a print head alignment, per my tech's request. The test was printed on Grimco Briteline Gloss 3203 with a freshly downloaded Grimco profile. Completely unaltered by me. Although I lack experience, and am in the processing of learning this machine, these prints do not look right to me.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Correct Color]

Kelly,

For whatever reason, those prints always look terrible on those machines. You can't ever use them to tell, well, anything.

If you could print the same image you showed originally at a higher resolution, that would tell a lot more.

(Edited to add: What I meant by "higher resolution" was to upload an image that was -- say -- 200 or 300 dpi, not to print at a higher resolution.)

Mike

 

[P Wagner]

Hi Kelly,
The photos in your last post are of various calibration test plots, including printhead alignment and color calibration plots. It is not atypical to have some amount of ink bleed or coalescence in the Printhead alignment test plot, but it should not be evident in the color calibration plot.

I will contact you via PM in a few minutes to see if I can be of more assistance.
regards,

Paul

 

[Andriy]

Almost looks like the media isn't able to handle the Latex ink, similar to putting aqueous media on solvent machines

 

[FrankW]

Flexi is what our REP suggested. However, with the cloud subscription, I am not tied to it, so if it really is the issue I have no problem finding another solution. What would be your suggestion?

You can be shure if you ask such questions to more people you will get "the only one I will ever suggest" recommendation for every RIP on the market today .

Flexi is a good choice, for some of the latex printers it is the OEM-RIP HP delivers in the box. Flexi can't be the cause for grainy prints because of, in opposite to other printers on the market and older HP Latex too, all driver options and the dithering will not be managed anymore in the RIP, but in the printer itself: they are contone printers.

I work at a dealer and we deliver and support officially Onyx and SAi (Flexi), upon request Ergosoft Posterprint and Caldera. And they have all their pros and cons: Flexi is very easy to use and inexpensive, Onyx have Advantages in Color Replacement and Contour Cutting Automatisation, Caldera works on Macs (what some people request) and so on ...

Have you tried to adjust the media advancement, as I have suggested yesterday? It is easy to do, and could be worth trying it.