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I need a good analogy

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by The Vector Doctor, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. The Vector Doctor

    The Vector Doctor Very Active Member

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    Often I will tell a customer that their art is too low of a quality to trace. They see the small webpage sized image or blurry photo and think it is ok

    So I send them a closeup zoomed in view of the art. They often respond with... "well don't zoom in. Just trace it."

    That is not really possible. There is no way to produce a quality tracing this way. One analogy is to think of a doctor doing microsurgery. They use a magnifying eyepiece to allow them to work more closely

    Or imagine trying to draw a picture with a 10 foot long pencil. You cannot draw steady enough. And once you get closer you see that your drawing is not at all accurate.

    Here are 2 examples. One is at 100% and the other is zoomed in. Neither will result in a correct vector.
     

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  2. no analogy needed, tell them if they can't get better artwork then the price is what you quoted times 10,000
     
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  3. VanderJ

    VanderJ Merchant Member - Printer Parts and Sevice

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    Or try to make a circle with 4 pixels. No matter what, it will never look like a circle. It will always be some sort of diamond shape. Now double the pixels and it still doesn't look like a circle but it looks a lot closer. Now keep doubling over and over again and at some point you can't tell the difference between a circle made with pixels and a circle drawn by hand. You could make a diagram of this effect and send it to them to help them understand. Maybe even put a 4 pixel circle on there and ask them, "Where would you draw the line? Around the corners of the pixels? A circle inside the empty space? Or do you trace the middle/average of the pixel's position?" The answer of course is, it's up for interpretation due to lack of information. If there were more pixels, you don't have to guess as much.
     
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  4. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    Some people, no matter what, won't really care. They just expect you to "handle it, handle it". You can give them all the analogies that you want, but sometimes it won't make a dent in their thinking.
     
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  5. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    Like getting drunk and seeing everything blurry and then waking up the next morning and seeing her more clearly with all her pixels.
    Tell them you need a better picture of their ugly artwork before you get involved.
     
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  6. The Vector Doctor

    The Vector Doctor Very Active Member

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    here is another example. If I were to trace this 10 different times, the thickness of each line and size of each square would not be the same. Even being off just 1/64 of an inch makes a difference at full size
     

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  7. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    Like swimming underwater with your eyes opened without googles.
     
  8. The Vector Doctor

    The Vector Doctor Very Active Member

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    The blurriness they understand. I think they cannot comprehend why I cannot just trace without zooming in. That is the purpose of the zoom tool right... so you can work on and see details in your design. Any small movement of the mouse or tablet is magnified if you don't zoom in
     
  9. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    Our clients are not as technically savvy as we are and the less savvy they are, the more they expect us to just "handle it".

    We can spend time trying to inform and educate and have it go in one ear and out the other, or we can spend that same time applying our skills and expertise to the solution to get them what they need.

    99/100 times, we simply do that through a combination of software and manual efforts and they are never the wiser that we spent all of a few minutes cleaning something up. The results are usually good enough for whatever trivial little sign they wanted done and we've gained their trust without creating an issue that could be misinterpreted and cost us future work.

    I've worked in plenty of shops where the customers are viewed as the enemy and every excuse to make them even bigger adversaries is employed. Don't like PITAs, then turn them away at the door. Otherwise, strap on your "expert", "journeyman", "professional", "craftsman" boots and give them what they need as quickly and efficiently as possible. They'll appreciate it and your shop atmosphere will be one of fun, friendliness and positive energy for nearly all of the time.
     
  10. The Vector Doctor

    The Vector Doctor Very Active Member

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    Here is the problem.... these requests are coming from sign shops and designers. They should know better. If my neighbor had this request I could understand. But why am I explaining this to someone in the business that deals with this all the time? They must know the limitations.

    Another way to look at that lettering job... if 10 people traced those letters you would get 10 different interpretations. My customers are wanting an accurate tracing and cannot understand why I am unable to make that particular artwork accurate
     
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  11. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    Well I can answer the question why you are unable to make Sign shops and designers understand.
    You posted "you needed a good analogy" so far you get advice on running your business to strapping your big boy boots on. But no analogy like you asked for. Maybe the "you can lead a horse to water..."
     
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  12. bannertime

    bannertime "You guys do banners, right?"

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    You could possibly say it'd be like trying to add the leaves, by hand, back onto a dead tree.
     
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  13. AKwrapguy

    AKwrapguy Active Member

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    I simple tell that that what they have brought me is too small and poor quality. I can re-trace their logo, it's $75 and hour with a 3 hour minimum. Often they will send me the vectored version or a few more crappy files.

    While this sucks and is often the bane of this industry, I feel that at a point it's also our own fault. One thing I do to help remedy the situation is to send the customer a zip file that has their logo's. This way they don't delete the vectored one cause they can't open it. All they have to do is send the designer the zip file and it has a .PDF, .EPS, .jpg, and .png. In the .eps I also include the font names and where I got them from on a hidden layer. ( I always turn my fonts into shapes).

    I find this is easier for the client than sending or giving them a file for each format that they lose. It's also in their e-mail which they should be able to access form anywhere and any time.
     
  14. brycesteiner

    brycesteiner Member

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    I give them the option: "I can print it as is or they can provide better artwork. Which do you want?"

    It's the same as when people don't give bleeds in the files or colors don't match even though they are supposed to.

    In the industry people know better. If they give you poor art it's because they are lazy. That's why I offer. That puts the burden between them and their customer.
     
  15. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    Given the OP's most recent response and the fact that we are all in the "images" business, I'd say more than a few folks in the industry could use some advice on how to run their businesses if they can't even figure out how to deal with images on a regular basis.

    I wish a good, apt analogy was available to define the situation, but other than "if its blurry at this size, just wait until we enlarge it fifteen times, you'll get dizzy looking at it"

    What else is there to say? "Inform yourselves on the most basic functions of a sign/graphics shop or die"?
     
  16. WildWestDesigns

    WildWestDesigns Major Contributor

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    I agree that if they are in the trade, they should have learned up on it.

    However, if they have just bought clip art and don't actually create (or had others create) that can add a dynamic to it that they just haven't needed to learn.

    Now, with the "designers" aspect of. I don't know what's going on with some of them. Those are the ones that really should know what is up, but a lot of them don't and then they also have an ego as to what they do should work no matter what.

    I think that this is just the trend that is going on nowadays.
     
  17. d fleming

    d fleming Very Active Member

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    Some people you just can't help? Any one in a sign shop that doesn't get it needs more education or a new career. I just got off the phone with a real estate agent who told me she wants me to use her art from her student of graphic arts who is proficient in adobe so he can give me anything I need to do her 30"x 4' sign 20 feet in the air in full color with photos of her and her dog. I said no thank you. She didn't get it either.
     
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  18. Jburns

    Jburns Member

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    Boy, I understand your frustration, especially since they are sign shops. You stated above: They often respond with... "well don't zoom in. Just trace it."

    Then I would do it. Povide an autotrace in Ai, whatever and - tell them this one is a freebie example of artwork that was submitted.
     
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  19. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    Absolutely right on the need for those within the industry to know their stuff, but we shouldn't expect the average layperson or customer to "get it" that's what we're here for.
     
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  20. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    Its like mapping the moon with binoculars. If they cant zoom in and see what they have, will they ever know? If they question you, gaslight them, your overconfidence will make them question themselves and you will be right. It seems to work well for you know who here in the USA.
     
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