JFX200-2531 or Oce Arizona 360XT

[Pica Grove]

We've had an Oce Arizona 360XT for about 4 years now and it's really been nothing but problems. Lamps heating up material, white ink banding, neutral gray banding, outrageously expensive parts, expensive lamps, expensive ink heads, utterly poor service from Oce, etc. etc. etc.
Oce and the local distributor still claim these printers are flying off the shelf, they are the best in the industry, they engineered a good product and they whole bit. For me, I am honestly done with this printer. I hate it, its a $225,000 hunk of **** that apparently is only worth $50000 if I sell it used. I never know what I'm going to get from awesome prints to banded and poor quality prints. I want it out of our shop to die slowly and suffer like the power droid getting tortured in Return of the Jedi. I want that printer to feel the 4 years of stress, frustration, disappointment we have felt while using it. I want to get 60lbs of C4 from the black market and obliterate it from the face of the earth...did I mention I hate this printer?
We looked at a Mimaki JFX200-2531 and I was impressed with the features that basically countered 5 or 6 different things I don't like about the Arizona and it's way cheaper. Same size, same Z Axis height, which I'd like to see more but not a deal breaker. It doesn't have a roll media option but I only rarely use this on the Arizona for production. I always use it for nozzle checks.

Does anyone own a Mimaki flatbed, specifically the 200 series?. I was told that there are only a few of the 2531's in the country so I'm looking for any other info on Mimaki. When we bought the Arizona I heard from a couple different guys to absolutely do not buy Mimaki. However, in the last year I've heard from other people that Mimaki has gone to great lengths to get their customer service back up to speed and get back in the market.

 

[bigben]

I'm shopping my first flatbed right now. My top contender are OCÉ, mimaki and vanguard. The more I check the spec, communication and test print, the more I'm leaning to the vanguard. Jim really know his stuff and help me alot with my questions. Maybe take a look? As for the print quality, the vanguard at 2 pass as better quality than my HP latex at 10 pass.

 

[Pica Grove]

Is Vanguard that guy down in GA that builds them?

 

[BigfishDM]

I'm shopping my first flatbed right now. My top contender are OCÉ, mimaki and vanguard. The more I check the spec, communication and test print, the more I'm leaning to the vanguard. Jim really know his stuff and help me alot with my questions. Maybe take a look? As for the print quality, the vanguard at 2 pass as better quality than my HP latex at 10 pass.

Jim is a great guy and Vanguard is going to be a major player in that market for sure. I really like their units!

 

[Steve Weist]

We've had an Oce Arizona 360XT for about 4 years now and it's really been nothing but problems. Lamps heating up material, white ink banding, neutral gray banding, outrageously expensive parts, expensive lamps, expensive ink heads, utterly poor service from Oce, etc. etc. etc.
Oce and the local distributor still claim these printers are flying off the shelf, they are the best in the industry, they engineered a good product and they whole bit. For me, I am honestly done with this printer. I hate it, its a $225,000 hunk of **** that apparently is only worth $50000 if I sell it used. I never know what I'm going to get from awesome prints to banded and poor quality prints. I want it out of our shop to die slowly and suffer like the power droid getting tortured in Return of the Jedi. I want that printer to feel the 4 years of stress, frustration, disappointment we have felt while using it. I want to get 60lbs of C4 from the black market and obliterate it from the face of the earth...did I mention I hate this printer?
We looked at a Mimaki JFX200-2531 and I was impressed with the features that basically countered 5 or 6 different things I don't like about the Arizona and it's way cheaper. Same size, same Z Axis height, which I'd like to see more but not a deal breaker. It doesn't have a roll media option but I only rarely use this on the Arizona for production. I always use it for nozzle checks.

Does anyone own a Mimaki flatbed, specifically the 200 series?. I was told that there are only a few of the 2531's in the country so I'm looking for any other info on Mimaki. When we bought the Arizona I heard from a couple different guys to absolutely do not buy Mimaki. However, in the last year I've heard from other people that Mimaki has gone to great lengths to get their customer service back up to speed and get back in the market.

I have tons of references from Mimaki JFX 200 users if want to talk to some end users. My company is PDS Equipment. Google us and check out what were all about. Feel free to call me with any Mimaki flatbed questions, we know them inside and out.

Steve Weist
PDS Equipment
615-812-3001

 

[Steve Weist]

I'm shopping my first flatbed right now. My top contender are OCÉ, mimaki and vanguard. The more I check the spec, communication and test print, the more I'm leaning to the vanguard. Jim really know his stuff and help me alot with my questions. Maybe take a look? As for the print quality, the vanguard at 2 pass as better quality than my HP latex at 10 pass.

Big Ben, give me a call I would love a shot at earning your business. Steve Weist 615-812-3001 www.mimakiinkjet.com we are the#1 Mimaki dealer in the USA.

 

[Correct Color]

I'd give Vanguard a look as well. One of their printers won SGIA Product of the Year at the last SGIA show -- running a Correct Color profile. They also seem really concerned about getting it right at every step, and they're the first printer I've seen come along since the Oce came out that might really just knock them out of what Im consider to be the top spot.

 

[bigben]

Big Ben, give me a call I would love a shot at earning your business. Steve Weist 615-812-3001 www.mimakiinkjet.com we are the#1 Mimaki dealer in the USA.

Thank you for the offer, but I'm located in Canada.

 

[rexeric]

I don't know what went wrong there, but here in Italy I have seen dozens of Arizona 360XT and they worked superbly. I own one and I added a new Arizona 6170XTS to support increasing volumes. They never let me down and the print quality is a beauty. I have seen Mimakis, they're not bad either although a bit toyish, but if you need quality and production on a true flatbed Arizona is the choice. Sorry to hear you experienced differently.

We've had an Oce Arizona 360XT for about 4 years now and it's really been nothing but problems. Lamps heating up material, white ink banding, neutral gray banding, outrageously expensive parts, expensive lamps, expensive ink heads, utterly poor service from Oce, etc. etc. etc.
Oce and the local distributor still claim these printers are flying off the shelf, they are the best in the industry, they engineered a good product and they whole bit. For me, I am honestly done with this printer. I hate it, its a $225,000 hunk of **** that apparently is only worth $50000 if I sell it used. I never know what I'm going to get from awesome prints to banded and poor quality prints. I want it out of our shop to die slowly and suffer like the power droid getting tortured in Return of the Jedi. I want that printer to feel the 4 years of stress, frustration, disappointment we have felt while using it. I want to get 60lbs of C4 from the black market and obliterate it from the face of the earth...did I mention I hate this printer?
We looked at a Mimaki JFX200-2531 and I was impressed with the features that basically countered 5 or 6 different things I don't like about the Arizona and it's way cheaper. Same size, same Z Axis height, which I'd like to see more but not a deal breaker. It doesn't have a roll media option but I only rarely use this on the Arizona for production. I always use it for nozzle checks.

Does anyone own a Mimaki flatbed, specifically the 200 series?. I was told that there are only a few of the 2531's in the country so I'm looking for any other info on Mimaki. When we bought the Arizona I heard from a couple different guys to absolutely do not buy Mimaki. However, in the last year I've heard from other people that Mimaki has gone to great lengths to get their customer service back up to speed and get back in the market.

 

[KevSign]

We had 2010 350GT print perfectly, but I am lucky using 3rd party ink (CMYK Engineering) and great tech support. Local shop have 46oGt with 580 ink very suck and cannot not great tech support either.
We are selling our FB500 and upgrade with OCE 660XT.

 

[Bly]

We just bought a used 360GT from Oce.
Print quality is great and their service excellent.
Don't those Mimakis drop to half speed as soon as you put a fifth colour in them?

 

[Pauly]

We have good Oce support in Australia. Very good business model.

I've had a few issues with my 480xt. Nothing worth complaining about on the internet. But Yes they are a solid machine, well engineered. Always updated.
The colour and quality is amazing.
I have clients that wont use other printers other than the Arizona.

 

[Pauly]

We've had our 318gl for 3 years now and are extremely happy with it. I know it's a toy compared to the production printers y'all are using but it has met our requirements most of the time since we've had it. Faster is always better, but proper scheduling and planning makes up for slower print speeds for us.

Sorry to hear you've had nothing but troubles with yours. Every now and then I start to consider looking at different manufacturers then I remember just how reliable our Oce has been. 3 years (of light use mind you) and we've never had to fly in a tech. Only thing we had to replace since we're off warranty was a lamp housing shutter.......which was shockingly expensive but had to be done as the bearing was sticking. About $5k in parts/repairs/routine maintenance in 3 years is pretty reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

Good luck with your search, I hope you find something that will work well for you. Sounds like you may have just gotten a lemon, or a unit that was built on a Friday...

With the newer machines, those problems with the heads and other small things are addressed.
Note that the Arizona work better when they're getting used!

I bought mine because i liked the people standing behind the product. i have a very good relationship with Canon/Oce.
I honestly would not have a problem buying another product from them because of their quality of service i get from them.

I would believe it's different from country to country.

 

[Danskitt]

I notice the oce's are still using the UV lamps and not LED's, does anyone feel that's an issue?

 

[Pica Grove]

I feel it is a huge issue. I don't know how many pieces of material have been wrecked due to lamps heating up the material and it strikes the print head. I've registered temps as high as 135 degrees on the surface of a print. The way to avoid this is to use the vacuum bed...with 100% suction. Nothing under -10bar, why isn't this done all the time?? Its difficult to mask an odd shape on the vacuum bed and get 100% suction to where the intense heat from the lamps will not distort the material. Even the best of efforts sometimes result in the part popping off the bed in the middle of a print run. This also takes time, time not accounted for in Oce's award winning print times that they boast are faster than everyone else. If I had LED lamps, I would only need to be sure the material is flat, not flat with 100% suction. Of course you can try to run with a delay....yeah, a delay, lets waste more time on our industry leading Oce/Canon flatbed.
I've also read that the ink and the lamps are not truly tuned into each other so there are adhesion issues with the ink, which is why they are trying to develop their own new ink 257, 256 and 258 ink don't cure very well and their adhesion is moderate in my opinion. It works for most applications but on things like metal, some plastics, the adhesion isn't there...use an adhesion promoter...again, wasting more time on this industry leading flatbed.
I have a great idea, make your inks have superior adhesion instead of blaming your customers for not cleaning the media first with a water/alcohol wipe and let it thoroughly dry, then apply an approved (only available through an Oce distributor) and let that dry, then use a 2-3 second delay so there is no warping of the material. Be sure to set up proper (100%) suction on your part so it doesn't buckle under the lamps. Then after printing, let is sit for 24hrs before handling it...award winning high speed performance from your industry leading award winning Oce/Canon flatbed

 

[Pauly]

I feel it is a huge issue. I don't know how many pieces of material have been wrecked due to lamps heating up the material and it strikes the print head. I've registered temps as high as 135 degrees on the surface of a print. The way to avoid this is to use the vacuum bed...with 100% suction. Nothing under -10bar, why isn't this done all the time?? Its difficult to mask an odd shape on the vacuum bed and get 100% suction to where the intense heat from the lamps will not distort the material. Even the best of efforts sometimes result in the part popping off the bed in the middle of a print run. This also takes time, time not accounted for in Oce's award winning print times that they boast are faster than everyone else. If I had LED lamps, I would only need to be sure the material is flat, not flat with 100% suction. Of course you can try to run with a delay....yeah, a delay, lets waste more time on our industry leading Oce/Canon flatbed.
I've also read that the ink and the lamps are not truly tuned into each other so there are adhesion issues with the ink, which is why they are trying to develop their own new ink 257, 256 and 258 ink don't cure very well and their adhesion is moderate in my opinion. It works for most applications but on things like metal, some plastics, the adhesion isn't there...use an adhesion promoter...again, wasting more time on this industry leading flatbed.
I have a great idea, make your inks have superior adhesion instead of blaming your customers for not cleaning the media first with a water/alcohol wipe and let it thoroughly dry, then apply an approved (only available through an Oce distributor) and let that dry, then use a 2-3 second delay so there is no warping of the material. Be sure to set up proper (100%) suction on your part so it doesn't buckle under the lamps. Then after printing, let is sit for 24hrs before handling it...award winning high speed performance from your industry leading award winning Oce/Canon flatbed

Honestly i believe it's the operator, not the printer.

No ink in any world will have super adhesion on any material. If you understand the ink properties of UV cured ink, you'd understand.
I use adhesion promotors on materials that need it, and i dont use it on materials that dont need it.
All the inks Oce offer are depending on what you plan to use it for. 256 was the replacement for 255. The 257 is the replacement of 257. 258 has better adhesion with smaller colour gamut. If you had bothered to read the PDFs on their site, you'd know.
https://dgs.oce.com/PrinterSupport/Arizona_250GT_Customer/Documents/App48B_IJC25X_Ink_Conversion.pdf

Some materials need less heat so you turn the lamps on low. some need more so crank it up. there's no 1 setting for everything.
You're suppose to use the vacuum to get the material as flat as possible to avoid head strikes.
Some materials require a delay and some dont.

Where ever you've read that the lamps and inks are not "tuned into eachother" is not true. Ink will cure differently on different materials. And the older the lamps get, the more power you need to produce the heat required.

I have never heard someone bash such a high quality machine so much. I've never had any issue you've outlined. I've printed on many many materials.

Yes te Oce Arizona is an industry leading flatbed. The colour gamut they can produce is amazing. The ink properties are pretty damn good. I use them for Glass prints, acrylic, PVC and print stuff with the RMO all the time like banners and basic stickers. not one issue with material getting to hot, warping or anything you've outlined in your passage.

 

[Pica Grove]

Over 50 service calls in four years, the service contractor has replaced so many parts on this machine that we didn't break they have dropped our service contract. Main motherboard was fried, ink leaks, ink banding in white, ink drips, ink banding in color, etc,etc. This particular machine is not reliable, and I'm not the only guy out there. I wouldn't recommend Oce/Canon to anyone. I am glad however that you got a printer that works reliably. I know guys that were selling them on Global Garage for nothing, like $30-40,000 just to get rid of them they were so fed up.
We spent $225,000 on this printer and treated it like we spent a quarter of a million dollars on it

 

[Pauly]

Over 50 service calls in four years, the service contractor has replaced so many parts on this machine that we didn't break they have dropped our service contract. Main motherboard was fried, ink leaks, ink banding in white, ink drips, ink banding in color, etc,etc. This particular machine is not reliable, and I'm not the only guy out there. I wouldn't recommend Oce/Canon to anyone. I am glad however that you got a printer that works reliably. I know guys that were selling them on Global Garage for nothing, like $30-40,000 just to get rid of them they were so fed up.
We spent $225,000 on this printer and treated it like we spent a quarter of a million dollars on it

For maintenance issues like that, you can blame the person who put it together.
Like i said, these machines are solid. i know enough owners of these who can say the same thing.

Printing issues from what you say is all the user and not the printer.

Any faults with the printer like ink leaking ect, that's your service contractor. Which could be useless.

 

[Pica Grove]

I'd love to hear how all of our banding issues with the white and color are our fault, you sound like the Canon guys. I've got saved nozzle checks at 100% and 5min later the print starts banding. I've got prints that start out looking great, 1/3 into the print they start banding. I've got print runs that are great for the first 2-3 sets then it starts banding. I've got white print runs that printed great then dumped massive amounts of drips and ink onto the prints. I've got nozzle checks at 100% for days, prints great. I've got nozzle checks that can't clear for a whole week.

It isn't dust, it isn't hairs, it isn't dirty not property prepared media. Its an inconstant machine, profiles that don't match the ink...I don't know, I'm not a Canon tech. All I know is we just switched to a third party ink with their profiles and we have ZERO banding...immediately.
Nothing else changed...the operator is the same as it was a week ago too.

 

[Pauly]

I'd love to hear how all of our banding issues with the white and color are our fault, you sound like the Canon guys. I've got saved nozzle checks at 100% and 5min later the print starts banding. I've got prints that start out looking great, 1/3 into the print they start banding. I've got print runs that are great for the first 2-3 sets then it starts banding. I've got white print runs that printed great then dumped massive amounts of drips and ink onto the prints. I've got nozzle checks at 100% for days, prints great. I've got nozzle checks that can't clear for a whole week.

It isn't dust, it isn't hairs, it isn't dirty not property prepared media. Its an inconstant machine, profiles that don't match the ink...I don't know, I'm not a Canon tech. All I know is we just switched to a third party ink with their profiles and we have ZERO banding...immediately.
Nothing else changed...the operator is the same as it was a week ago too.

I didn't say the banding is your fault.
All the materials over heating and bending is though. that's all preventable.
Colour profiles. Well that's a different story. All canned profiles are crap. That you blame the software i.e onyx or what ever you're using with it.
You know running 3rd party ink in the machine voids you from going on any service contract.

Your technician is the issue. You should be speaking to them about it and get them to send another tech down.
IF i have banding, call up canon, they send down a tech and they will do a head alignment and my banding is gone. i haven't had banding in over a year.

IF it's banding during prints, it could be that there's air in your lines which means check your ink filters and bleed them (your problem not theirs)
If you have a vacuum leak, the screen will tell you and that means somewhere it's not holding vacuum. that causes ink to drop. Or your heads faulty which can happen. Sometimes there's a manufacturer defect. I've seen a machine that all the heads went at once, but because it happened years later, it's not canons fault as it's a consumable. if that happened 1 month in, they would replace them all then send the old ones in to get checked.

The ink reservoirs could be leaking, easy to replace and not expensive. they cause issues if vacuum leaks from them

I am being quite fair with my answers. even if it sounds harsh.

 

[Pica Grove]

they have tried all of those things, air in the lines, head height, UV banding, I was even told that the ink is evaporating before it can get to the media due to the bulb temp....we've heard it all.
I understand that this may be a new or unfamiliar product to the service provider but Oce/Canon should do everything it can to back them up so I'm not sitting here with a half-ass quarter million dollar boat anchor of a printer. I've had our techs sit on hold from Oce/Canon for 4 hours waiting for an answer and then they just stab in the dark as to the cause, air in lines, filters changed, degas pressure low, coolant fluid low, etc etc
I've had two Oce/Canon techs, really Canon techs in on the service providers dime and they would be all excited that they fixed it and 15 min later it starts doing the same thing.
I have no doubt there are working printers out there, like I said, over 4 years we've used this machine but overall the performance is poor.

I was recently told by Canon that my expectations of the print quality are too high and they will no longer be fixing our machine. They told me that no digital printer can eliminate banding and that our 360 XT, not the GT model, but the XT is made for sign printing and viewing distances of greater than 6ft. That email came from Canon, lame excuses that make no sense at all. I'd like to see that as a huge banner at a trade show over their Arizona platform. "Award winning print quality as long as you are 6 feet away!!"

Again, after we switched to a third party ink and profiles...no banding. And it was much cheaper to switch over than to switch back to Oce/Canon approved ink.

Yes I know it voids our service contract - they canned us before we even switched. As soon as they heard that we were "thinking" of changing to a different ink as a solution to our problem they canned our asses immediately. They wasted so much travel, time, money, parts trying to get our printer to work they just left us hanging. Thank you Canon, great customer service. All they fall back on is that we are not properly maintaining the machine and our expectations are too high.

We've never modified the machine or worked on it. Specifically because I didn't want them dropping us. Beyond that, the machine is so locked down you can't work on it anyway.

 

[Pica Grove]

Pauly, I don't want to get in a pissing match with you but we've heard it all from Oce/Canon and honestly it seems more of a Canon issue. They have been terrible in the customer service department. I specifically purchased this printer due to its reputation, award winning results and the supposed reliability of the machine. I expect something that costs $225,000 to perform...flawlessly. If I spent $50,000 on a China rip off and had these problems, I'd blame myself for not buying the industry standard. But when you buy the industry standard and it performs like the rip off, something is not right.