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Laminating window perf

TeamOutlaw

New Member
Have had numerous commercial business customers complain that the rear window perf is impossible to see out of when it's wet or dusty. So, we tried laminating one of the latest jobs to see if that would solve the issue.

Now the window looks "foggy" from the inside out!? He said his last perf (done at another shop) was completely clear and had a laminate on it. What am I missing!? Thinner lam?
 

unclebun

Active Member
The haziness you experienced was from the adhesive of the laminate. Optically clear laminates typically come on a plastic release liner and do not give that haziness. We used to buy separate optically clear laminate for our perf, but now we use Avery DOL1360 as our standard wrap laminate, and it's even clearer than what we used to use and stays clear longer.
 

DaveD

New Member
We use Avery DOL1360Z. It's also what we use on most of our printing so we don't have to stock an "Optically Clear" lam.
 

TeamOutlaw

New Member
Yeah...that's our issue then. We just tried using our 3M 8518 laminate that we use on vehicles etc.

Looking at my perf options from vendors...there are a LOT of options / brands! from $1800 a roll to $250! And for the most part still only a 1yr durable film. Yet, the optically clear laminates are sometimes showing 8yr durable!? What gives? Thanks!
 

BigfishDM

Merchant Member
Yeah...that's our issue then. We just tried using our 3M 8518 laminate that we use on vehicles etc.

Looking at my perf options from vendors...there are a LOT of options / brands! from $1800 a roll to $250! And for the most part still only a 1yr durable film. Yet, the optically clear laminates are sometimes showing 8yr durable!? What gives? Thanks!

This is the perf you should be showing!
 

fuzzy_cam

The Granbury Wrap & Sign Guy
We laminate perf alllll the time with 8518, no problems. Right after installation there is a good haze and squeegee marks. They go away after a day or so in the sun.
 

TeamOutlaw

New Member
We laminate perf alllll the time with 8518, no problems. Right after installation there is a good haze and squeegee marks. They go away after a day or so in the sun.
Really!? Hot or cold lam make a difference!? We have ability to hot...but typically just roll cold. I've had 3 customers tell me they had a "blurry / hazy" view with the 8518 on rear windows of their pickups...
 

fuzzy_cam

The Granbury Wrap & Sign Guy
Really!? Hot or cold lam make a difference!? We have ability to hot...but typically just roll cold. I've had 3 customers tell me they had a "blurry / hazy" view with the 8518 on rear windows of their pickups...

We have a Seal 62 base laminator with heat option, we hardly ever use the heat on it (only when laminating with cheaper calendared materials). We almost always roll cold, too. We notify our customers before/during/after perf installation that the haze and and squeegee stroke marks will go away with a little time, and the sunshine helps.
 

JTBoh

I sell signage and signage accessories.
"I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "Optically Clear."
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Throw a 24 x 24 piece of 8518 on a window, and throw a piece of 24 x 24 optically clear on a window, step 5 ft back and try to look out.

Now imaging only 30-40% of the vinyl being see through while the rest is blocked.

We'd never use 8518 on perf... And hopefully after the test you guys will never either!


That said... theres also different types of window perf. For vehicles, it's best to use 50/50 if they want to be able to see out it perfectly. The other stuff is great for windows, and it works in a pinch on a vehicle... But 50/50 will still look great while allowing the user to see the most clear.

You didn't say what ratio window perf you were using... So that may be why he has reduced visibility also.


[Edit] Great for Windows, not doors... Unless it's a glass door, of course!
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
We'd never use 8518 on perf... And hopefully after the test you guys will never either!

We've been using it on perf for ~6 years without a complaint (so far), but I absolutely *hate* how hard it is to get it to release from the liner.
What alternate products can you recommend? I'd rather relegate 8518 back to laminating 180C and nothing else.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
We've been using it on perf for ~6 years without a complaint (so far), but I absolutely *hate* how hard it is to get it to release from the liner.
What alternate products can you recommend? I'd rather relegate 8518 back to laminating 180C and nothing else.
Optically clear looks way better. You can get away with 8518... But the difference really is night and day. Most of the people who still use 8518 haven't used optically clear before, so they don't realize / know the difference. 8518 is cheaper... So if your customers don't complain, you could keep using it. It's not like it's going to cause a failure, it's just not the best solution.

We try to stick with same brands for media, just for warranty purposes - we have some clients who spec 3m and only ,3m, so we have some 3m optically clear. We don't use it much though, so I'm not 100% sure on the number.

We (our installers) prefer Avery perf and lam, so that's what we use most of the time . We usually use the 1560 I Believe. And on occasion we have had the 4000 series in. I'll double check both when I get into the shop. We don't do too much perf, so I'm not ordering it enough to remember what it is. I usually shoot off an email to our supplier and ask for Avery perf/clear and they know what we want.

And I didn't mean to sound snarky, some people use 8518 and Im sure it's fine. It's all the customer preference... Optically clear costs more, so you obviously charge more for it. It does make a huge difference in see through-ness though, I suggest everyone who hasn't tried optically clear to ask for a sample... Most places will give you a few ft. You can do a 12" patch with, and without perf on a window and take a look through .

We had a client need a window done in a rush, and we ran out of optical. We had to use 8518...we told the client we didn't have the right material, and we'd use it as a temp measure and they could come back anytime and we would replace it free of charge. That's how much we believe optically clear makes a difference.


Plus... Who knows, next time your customer gets into an accident, in this day and age they could sue you for not using optically clear claiming the AC identify was your fault, because they couldn't properly see out of their back window when reversing .
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
The weird thing is, 8518 is marketed as optically clear here by several suppliers in Australia.
Having a look at 3M site in the US shows me that 8914 is actually the optically clear version. Sigh...

Oh, I didn't take any offence to what you'd written. I was only going off what our suppliers told us ~7 years ago when we first started doing perf. Just stuck with what we were using because no-one has questioned it yet.
I'll enquire on the price of 8914 and Avery 1560 next week.

Thanks.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
That's the one, 8914. It also comes as an edge sealer, which is nice.


8918 shouldn't be marketed as clear.. if you look at it you can see a slight yellowish tint from the glue. That's what causes the blurriness. I know the bulletin for perf lists 8918 for graphic protection, so maybe that confused your supplier into thinking it's optically clear.

Once you see optically clear you'll see it's true clear like glass. I do think 8918 is pretty expensive... You should be fine using Avery optically clear instead. It might technically void the warranty... But we do mix them on occasion and have never had to do a replace.
 
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