Laminator eating material...(yep another one of those)

[Design it Graphics]

Laminator woes need advice (detailed pictures inside)

First off, I've read just about everything I could on setting up the tension on the lamintor.

It is a Royal Sov 1401 Cold Roller 55 inch

I can run 30'' media up to about 30' with very little walk, I do feel as If i do know how to feed material correctly...

I've attempted using Leaders / taping the media to leader,
Having machine cut edge fresh off the printer sliding it under a leader to pinch it between rollers,
hand feeding (just for good measure..)

I really do not feel it is a user error for my dilemma. (At first I really figured it was myself screwing up).

Any how, I'm getting a / / media \ \ type of wrinkle as it comes through the laminator. I've even tighted it too far to witness the D shaped wrinkles from when the ends are tighter than the middle.

I've removed the sides from the machine and I have the adjustment screws exposed. After toying with the machine for quite some time last night I believe I fully understand the mechanical side of this machine which is extremely straight forward.


I decided to buy a 54" wide roll of cheap material and feed it through to adjust my rollers (did this last night was able to get it to feed 20' no problems with no laminate webbed. Now you may say it could be my webbing, this is where I'll disagree because when I first purchased this machine I did have the webbing woe's and I've become proficient at this procedure.

I'm trying to not sound stubborn but I've spent the better part of yesterday tinkering with loading procedures and different methods to ensure that it is in fact not my loading. Again, I can load 30'' material and run 30-40' runs with maybe 1/4'' walk.



Can some one enlighten me,

I also want to make sure that // \\ means not tight enough (meaning edges are not equal pressure to middle of roller) and D shaped means middle is looser than ends.

 

[Design it Graphics]

Illustration of side removed



Me after doing research, this is in the natural weight of roller laying on top of bottom roller slight crown. (which I believe is needed for this machine).



And the nightmare.

 

[Design it Graphics]

Continuing my research in this project in trying to get this thing to laminate perfect.

The help I need from the community is,

Describe what each screw does, on the top roller. Example - what change would occur if i only tighten the front screw and not the rear.
Also if I'm facing warpage on the left hand side of the roller, and the print is warping in a \\ fashion. Does this mean to tighten or loosen this side. (pretty certain its tighten.)



For you all's viewing, I've just done a timeline of a print I managed to slowly run through the laminator while taking pics and adjusting the top rollers pressure. Currently my adjuster screws are too tight, I understand that.

My laminating position is too tight, and my 2nd position for 4mm gap is what i believe to be slightly too little pressure on the sides?(this is my theory).

Any who pics.


Loading the Print. Used a fellow forum guy's method of masking tape on the edge, I was sure to not add tension to the tape as I was laying it down so it did not curl the vinyl which would cause a failure in loading procedure.


2nd angle of loading.


3rd angle of loading with a marker to show distance traveled to get an idea of how out of line it was according to when warping occurred.


4th Lever is in the laminating position, which already stated is indeed too tight. Started noticing the D shaped warping.


5th slowly relieved tension via lever made it to where the bottom of the bar met the top of the next slow down. Noticed it laying flat as it moved through the lamintator so I continued to lam until I was met with some warping see next pic.


6th - as stated above noticed some \\ wrinkling coming in. I stopped the machine to take a pic of distance traveled. see next pic



7th - About half way through a 5.5' run. notice the green tape from pic 3.


8th

Here is the edge of the vinyl upon finishing so you can see that obviously it is not perfectly flat. Granted I did not waste this run, Thank goodness I've wasted enough lam and vinyl. However this would never be kosher i don't think for the two 10' runs I have for the bed of this truck.





Hopefully with this information you all can help me better to help me get this sucker nice and perfect. I do feel a bit better that I am getting close .

 

[Design it Graphics]

I've made it work manually adjusting the tension going through just ran 20' no issues. I just need to get it to the "laminating position" at a later time.

If some one can go into detail about what I had asked before about adjusting just 1 screw instead of both what would that do, that way I can eliminate some time tuning it later.

 

[dypinc]

First off I don't understand why your printed vinyl is just hanging there loose. That is just asking for trouble if that is how you're feeding it.

In Attachment 94877 I see what appears to be an idler roller under the lower pinch roller and in front of that is a spool of something. Not sure what that is because it looks like your over-laminate is being feed from the top.

If I was over-laminating vinyl I would be feeding it from the lower spool under and around the idler roller and then rolled around the bottom pinch roller. Between the tension from the spool and going around the two rollers you should have nice smooth vinyl as it gets laminated, not all over the place as in your photos where it is just hanging over the feed table.

 

[Design it Graphics]

First off I don't understand why your printed vinyl is just hanging there loose. That is just asking for trouble if that is how you're feeding it.

In Attachment 94877 I see what appears to be an idler roller under the lower pinch roller and in front of that is a spool of something. Not sure what that is because it looks like your over-laminate is being feed from the top.

If I was over-laminating vinyl I would be feeding it from the lower spool under and around the idler roller and then rolled around the bottom pinch roller. Between the tension from the spool and going around the two rollers you should have nice smooth vinyl as it gets laminated, not all over the place as in your photos where it is just hanging over the feed table.

The laminator is webbed correctly.

As for the vinyl hanging down, this is not causing the issue. On my usual runs of 10-30' on 30inch media Its ran through the feeder with moderate tension.

I have figured out the issue (rollers were uneven in pressure)


I know how to tune the machine to where it needs to be. At this point What I want to know is what would happen if I was fine tuning my rollers, Lets say I've got it pretty even but for some reason I'm seeing warpage on the left side. I understand I can tighten both sides of the roller, but are there any effects to only tightening just 1 adjuster slightly?

I'm trying to understand exactly what happens to where I can find that perfect pressure.

 

[dypinc]

The laminator is webbed correctly.

As for the vinyl hanging down, this is not causing the issue.

I guess you can run it however you want. On page 11 of your manual is how I would do it and I would think it would eliminate the problems you seem to be asking about. This is the way I always run vinyl on our Seal 6100 whether it for over-lam or loaded from the top for laminating to large sign panels or even lots of yards signs. Always makes me cringe to see vinyl just loaded loose like that.

 

[Richard G]

Laminator Woes

I thought it was just me at times and how I feed it into the lamiator. I have this same issue at times as well. It either works perfect or it is a pain in the @#$. If you ever get an answer to this please make sure it is posted for all. I just went for the last 6 months with my laminator mysteriously flicking off and on.... Come to finally find out after buying a transformer and new elec. board that I had an issue with the power going to the unit. Hired an electrician in the beginning an he didn't catch it. It was a bad breaker.... Good luck and let us know if you find out what the cause is.

 

[Design it Graphics]

I guess you can run it however you want. On page 11 of your manual is how I would do it and I would think it would eliminate the problems you seem to be asking about. This is the way I always run vinyl on our Seal 6100 whether it for over-lam or loaded from the top for laminating to large sign panels or even lots of yards signs. Always makes me cringe to see vinyl just loaded loose like that.

Just for good measure I went and rechecked the manual.To ensure I'm not being an asshat, which i'm not...but there are plenty of newbucks on here that ask questions and expect answers without putting anything in themselves.

Any how, It shows the webbing from the roller under the upper bar and lam to the roller / backing paper to the take up reel.


Here is More photo's on my webbing. (ocal290 lam).



Any how, Back to the actual issue. Tension on the rollers.

I was able to laminate my entire job for this truck with no issues. But i'm having to hold the pressure at a specific point.



11' run of media (nothing special I know but before it wouldn't do 2' before creasing/ruining a print.)

 

[SlightlyChilled]

Your rollers are out of leavel. You can't eye ball it you need a pull guage. I had the same thing. They are 80.00 you can get one from Grimco... look at my old posts we were just talking about this last month

 

[dypinc]

Just for good measure I went and rechecked the manual.To ensure I'm not being an asshat, which i'm not...but there are plenty of newbucks on here that ask questions and expect answers without putting anything in themselves.

Any how, It shows the webbing from the roller under the upper bar and lam to the roller / backing paper to the take up reel.


Here is More photo's on my webbing. (ocal290 lam).

Just to clarify, I am talking about feeding the printing vinyl on the bottom take off roll, webbed around the bottom idler and the bottom pinch roller with the proper tension on the vinyl roll to match the tension of the over-laminate. The issues you are facing would disappear this way but like I said if you want to feed your printed vinyl loose like that go right ahead, and good luck.

 

[jmcnicoll]

Just another reason why you shouldn't cheap out on a laminator! If I was paying for it I may do so as well, but the $20,000 to $30,000 machines sure are nice
to use and will last a lifetime!

 

[dypinc]

Just another reason why you shouldn't cheap out on a laminator! If I was paying for it I may do so as well, but the $20,000 to $30,000 machines sure are nice
to use and will last a lifetime!

But even with the $20,000 to $30,000 machines if you don't web your vinyl your still going to have problems because no vinyl is going to lay flat enough on its own. When heat is applied in the printing process it is even less likely to lay flat. On top of that why would you apply tension on the laminate and not on the vinyl. There is a reason the manual shows to web both the laminate and the vinyl.

 

[jmcnicoll]

agreed! Have used both and love the cadilacs! Makes laminating a whole roll a breeze and fast, plus lets you do hot lams properly

 

[Design it Graphics]

But even with the $20,000 to $30,000 machines if you don't web your vinyl your still going to have problems because no vinyl is going to lay flat enough on its own. When heat is applied in the printing process it is even less likely to lay flat. On top of that why would you apply tension on the laminate and not on the vinyl. There is a reason the manual shows to web both the laminate and the vinyl.

You clearly pick and choose what you read.... stop being dense. That's great, you have a nice machine or shoulda got a seal. RS machine is plenty of a machine for my business currently, several other shops use them with far higher volume than that of my self... your just being an elitist asshat who wants to put something down when clearly I've stated I do keep the vinyl tight off the feeder for my long runs..

I do not always run my vinyl this way... It was a very short run. Lets get back on current topic.


I am not having any issues with the lamination anymore. I want to adjust my machine so it behaves as it is in the position illustrated in the photograph I provided for you but in the Lamination position. I want to get to that point fully understanding the mechanics / reactions per action that I make.


so again... since you are so wise can you just answer the question I've been asking?

Mechanically, are there any gains in only adjusting 1 screw(front or back of top roller) or should you always keep them even in tension per side on top roller.

 

[Design it Graphics]

This is how I mount a long run.

Dypinc I am certain you are a book of information, No sarcasm at all. The problem is some of you people have issues really understanding that SOME people do have a understanding of what you are trying to tell them. Some of us need a small assistance, I didn't come here expecting to be spoon fed some answer. Hell I read for hours and trying to make adjustments on my own before even making a post. I didn't come here asking about a SEAL or any other fancy laminator. I am 24 years old running a operation that is still under 1 year old and managed to pull not only positive numbers while paying my self a solid salary, but I am on target to do 85-100k in sales in my first operating year. I did not need a huge paperweight caddilac of a machine that laminates perfect. I needed something that I could buy and have paid off and not worry about paying monthly.



Now that I've resolved my issues I'm asking a question for sake of knowing useful information down the road so that I would not be back here posting about some small insignificant issue that could have been resolved with just a understanding of how a specific thing worked.

So:

1. Are there any gains to turning 1 of the 2 tensioner screws per side.

2. If there are gains, What gains do I get from only adjusting the front. What gains do I get from only adjusting the Rear.

 

[P Wagner]

I cannot help much with the adjustment questions as I have little experience with performing these type of adjustments on the RS machines. RS support would be who I would direct this type of query to.

I can confirm that your webbing in the photo is incorrect. It should feed from the core in the front, around the lower silver idler roller bar (located below the lower main roller), and then up and around the lower main roller, through the nip, and not around the front of the removable front tray. You would remove the front tray to web the print, then replace the tray after it has been properly webbed up.

 

[SlightlyChilled]

If they are not around the same tension one will pull harder and they will fight against each other. in a way

 

[Design it Graphics]

If they are not around the same tension one will pull harder and they will fight against each other. in a way

Thank you.


As far as webbing is concerned, Here is how RS shows how to do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C87I3XhZ3U

The problem is the arms are rather flimsy and actually walk / track side to side sometimes.

There is a roller under the bottom roller that has bearings on each end that does absolutely nothing, . A member on this forum called me and walked me through how he ran his RS Laminator. He's shown several tech's this and NO one even realized that this roller is there lmao.

Ran 40' this way which is a new record for us. The fella who called me with this wonderful advise on webbing the RS, stated he has run approx 75+ 150' rolls through his machine this year.

I Believe your method is something along these lines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_6uqhgBG8

I could see this working as well. Only issue I have with this method is I always take a swiffer pad and wipe the prints as they come through. Our shop isn't really dirty but Just about every time I've ever not wiped a print down I get dirt particles in my laminate probably due to static.



Any how appreciate the input from anyone aside from the elitist fella.

 

[lbumbaca]

YOUR WELCOME ANYTIME Nice to give back to the forum hope it all helps you. I am the guy that took time out of my day to help. Now the next time I am in Florida I WANT A BEER lol LEO BAC SIGNS Toronto Canada