Major Vinyl problems!!!!!!!!!! :-(

[signage]

Rob sunlight and UV are one issue but we have wide temperature swings that also have different effects on the vinyls/adhesives. Also what you are seeing could be caused by the temperature swings that the vinyl is seeing! Remember the the flat sign doesn't get any heating from the other side while the vehicles get warmed up from the inside out during our winter months! So that may have caused the issue with the vehicles while the sign isn't experiencing it!

 

[cptcorn]

I'm gonna say the opposite of everyone here.

The black did not shrink at all. What's happening is that when you lay cast down, it wont shrink beyond a certain amount, that's great. When you put a calendared film down its going to contract/expand more than what the cast film will... So if you mix the two and put cast on the bottom and calendared on top the calendared film will shrink more than the cast. Any movement on top layer, say 1mm, will pull that base (cast film) towards it. The further you get from that calendared film the greater that distance will be. So minor movement towards the center equals a large distance further away.

In my example here. Blue = Force of the vinyl contracting. The green circles represent reinforcement. So that will effect the shrinking of the calendared film on top. Think of it as lining up a print for a laminator, any tiny adjustment when you line up your print at the beginning, say 1/16" will equate to 1" after 120" of material is fed through. This is the same idea that's happening when that calendared film shrinks a tiny bit, the black will shrink even more further away from where the shrinking is occurring.

5-6 year vinyl matched with 7-10 year vinyl is irrelevant. The tolerances for the shrinking of both are very different. You should not use them together at all.

 

[Marlene]

Well let me ask you and the others how you guys can say that calendered vinyl rated for 5-6 years is for temp jobs vs cast which is rated from 7-8 years. I can understand that if it was the cheap stuff yes that is rated for 1-2 yrs but 5-6yrs is not a temp job as far as I am concerned. Not looking to argue with anyone just trying to see where others are coming from.

calendered vinyl is OK for jobs that aren't going to be around very long, even if they say it lasts for 5-6 years, it isn't made as well as cast vinyl so it will do things that cast won't like shrink, pull up, crack or just fall off. calender is cheaper. a quick comparison from Grimco. 3M, 4 mil, 5 year calender vinyl sells for $57.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll of colored. 3M, 2 mil cast, 7 year sell for $161.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll. that's a big difference in price and you get a better product with less issues for the cost. there are a lot of people on the site that use it and I have no problem with it, but when things happen, you have to be prepared for that.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

cptcorn has it. You can't put calendered on top of cast no matter what. Calendered will shrink and expand much more than cast. If the two are layered, the calendered will pull the cast with it, causing what you're seeing here.

 

[encadtech]

In response to BadAsss' problem - I had some similiar issues w/ hood graphics - Seal the edges w/ a seal-it pen. No problems since

 

[cptcorn]

calendered vinyl is OK for jobs that aren't going to be around very long, even if they say it lasts for 5-6 years, it isn't made as well as cast vinyl so it will do things that cast won't like shrink, pull up, crack or just fall off. calender is cheaper. a quick comparison from Grimco. 3M, 4 mil, 5 year calender vinyl sells for $57.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll of colored. 3M, 2 mil cast, 7 year sell for $161.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll. that's a big difference in price and you get a better product with less issues for the cost. there are a lot of people on the site that use it and I have no problem with it, but when things happen, you have to be prepared for that.

I wont debate the price of the material... But how do you discount your end product enough to make it a "valuble" savings to the customer...

100sq ft job, would cost you $31 to produce with the calendared vinyl. With cast it would cost you $86. (ROUGHLY)... so lets just say the customer is billed out $6/sq for cast vinyl. This ends up being a $600 job for cast vinyl. How much do you bill them for the cheap stuff? $545 ? Becasue the amount of work is absolutely the same, the only thing that changes is the difference in material price, which is practically nothing. How would $545 look so much better for cheap vinyl than $600 for the best?

I'm not attacking anyone, just curious how people give such deeeeeep discounts by using cheap vinyl compared to good stuff.

 

[scarface]

Yeah i totally agree. There isn't much of a difference in price but if you tell someone it will be $400 for "the cheap stuff" and $550 for the premium they will most likely pick the cheap stuff everytime.

I have used Calendered vinyl for years with no problems. Depending on how long it needs to be on the surface and the surfaces situation (rivets, curves ect), i will use cast.

People need to understand that vinyl still breaks down though.

 

[cptcorn]

Yeah i totally agree. There isn't much of a difference in price but if you tell someone it will be $400 for "the cheap stuff" and $550 for the premium they will most likely pick the cheap stuff everytime.

I have used Calendered vinyl for years with no problems. Depending on how long it needs to be on the surface and the surfaces situation (rivets, curves ect), i will use cast.

People need to understand that vinyl still breaks down though.

This is exactly what I'm getting at... That's a huge price difference. Where is that difference from? I've seen soo many people quote stuff out like... well I'm paying 1/2 for materials, so the overall job should be 1/2 ...

 

[scarface]

This is exactly what I'm getting at... That's a huge price difference. Where is that difference from? I've seen soo many people quote stuff out like... well I'm paying 1/2 for materials, so the overall job should be 1/2 ...

I guess perceived value would determine the pricing difference.

 

[signage]

Scarface what I Cptcorn is saying is if you are willing to discount your labor on the cheaper vinyl you are taking on a bigger liability if it fails because the amount of labor to do the job the first time isn't changing and the cheaper vinyl is more likely to fail!
I would think that if you wanted to keep your reputation you would be better off discounting the labor and using the cast vinyl. Now this bring up a new point should your labor costs be hight to allow for this, that is your decision!

 

[sfr table hockey]

I wont debate the price of the material... But how do you discount your end product enough to make it a "valuble" savings to the customer...

100sq ft job, would cost you $31 to produce with the calendared vinyl. With cast it would cost you $86. (ROUGHLY)... so lets just say the customer is billed out $6/sq for cast vinyl. This ends up being a $600 job for cast vinyl. How much do you bill them for the cheap stuff? $545 ? Becasue the amount of work is absolutely the same, the only thing that changes is the difference in material price, which is practically nothing. How would $545 look so much better for cheap vinyl than $600 for the best?

I'm not attacking anyone, just curious how people give such deeeeeep discounts by using cheap vinyl compared to good stuff.

cptcorn just said what I've been trying to use to figure what my sell should be on lower priced media and high priced media.

This is the way to price things. A job should be the same price to print and apply Using the cheap stuff or the Highest priced stuff. Price the value to do the job, then add the price for materials used later. Lets say If your cost for material is $50 to do the job for low quality material you add $100 (double). To use best quality media $125 so you add $250. The end cost for the customer is only $150 difference.

 

[BadAss]

In response to BadAsss' problem - I had some similiar issues w/ hood graphics - Seal the edges w/ a seal-it pen. No problems since

I will try that on a few of the new trucks and put it into our findings as the time goes by. Thanx for the tip...M*

 

[Checkers]

Well that sucks Rob.

The first thing that popped into my mind is Avery. But, After reading your follow up posts, it appears to be a combination of incompatible materials and, (although I never heard of it before) contamination from wax or cleaner.

I hope you documented everything, used the same brand of materials for both layers and have a great relationship with your supplier. If not, it's probably not going to be an easy claim to win.

Checkers