Suggestions Sand blast engraved Multi-brick array- tips please!

[Rachel McCartney]

Hi! I have been working for a stone engraver for about 6 months. We do sandblast engraving on natural stone and brick. I am bidding on a job for a multi-brick display/array. It is a 10'x10' space made up of 1'x1' pavers. They want an 8'x8' team logo engraved and painted. We have never done an array before.. does anyone have tips or suggestions on how to map out the logistics of this project?

 

[Jburns]

James Burke may have some advice for you.

 

[James Burke]

I've not had a chance to do a brick array before, but since I use a 15-in Gerber plotter, I have had to tile many of our larger projects and the process is identical.

Some design programs are capable of automatically tiling your artwork. You just specify the tile sizes and the program does the rest...or so they say. I've never been fortunate enough to have simple enough layouts to do it that way though. My large stencil layouts resemble more of a jig saw puzzle instead of a Sudoku board. Most automatically tiled layouts involve a certain degree of overlap between sections, but you shouldn't specify any overlap in your case.

(I question the feasibility of auto tiling since you will need to accurately cut full boundaries for each tile. In the case of vinyl signage, the accuracy between tiles is not so much of an issue because the vinyl is applied to a single substrate...not 100 individual pieces)

Stencil is expensive, and I personally take the manual approach so I know exactly what to expect. It involves applying grid lines (the size of your pavers) to the layout and then trimming out individual copies of each section. I use AutoCAD for this process because it's extremely accurate and relatively fast. It can be tedious, but the best part is that I never have any surprises whatsoever. The last thing you need is 100 pieces of stencil that don't match up. In real-world terms, that would boil down to approx. $500 of scrap, plus labor.

If you've been at this for only 6 months, it's going to be a daunting task if you don't have any prior design experience. Send me a PM if you need clarification.

As far as engraving goes, you're going to want to blast them as an array since they will have incised surfaces across joint lines. This involves applying a 1" or 2" wide strip of stencil between adjacent pavers (on the sides of the pavers). Make sure the edge of the stencil remains perfectly flush with the top of the pavers. This stencil will prevent the abrasive from eroding between the joints.

Next, lay the pavers on the floor in your blast room and bind them together using ratchet binder straps. Apply the cut stencils to each section and then mask off the joints with narrow strips of stencil as needed. Then blast away. Some companies are capable of doing do this in a vertical manner with some sort of fixture.

I'm sure there are other ways of doing it, but that's just my $.02.


JB

 

[Rachel McCartney]

I've not had a chance to do a brick array before, but since I use a 15-in Gerber plotter, I have had to tile many of our larger projects and the process is identical.

Some design programs are capable of automatically tiling your artwork. You just specify the tile sizes and the program does the rest...or so they say. I've never been fortunate enough to have simple enough layouts to do it that way though. My large stencil layouts resemble more of a jig saw puzzle instead of a Sudoku board. Most automatically tiled layouts involve a certain degree of overlap between sections, but you shouldn't specify any overlap in your case.

(I question the feasibility of auto tiling since you will need to accurately cut full boundaries for each tile. In the case of vinyl signage, the accuracy between tiles is not so much of an issue because the vinyl is applied to a single substrate...not 100 individual pieces)

Stencil is expensive, and I personally take the manual approach so I know exactly what to expect. It involves applying grid lines (the size of your pavers) to the layout and then trimming out individual copies of each section. I use AutoCAD for this process because it's extremely accurate and relatively fast. It can be tedious, but the best part is that I never have any surprises whatsoever. The last thing you need is 100 pieces of stencil that don't match up. In real-world terms, that would boil down to approx. $500 of scrap, plus labor.

If you've been at this for only 6 months, it's going to be a daunting task if you don't have any prior design experience. Send me a PM if you need clarification.

As far as engraving goes, you're going to want to blast them as an array since they will have incised surfaces across joint lines. This involves applying a 1" or 2" wide strip of stencil between adjacent pavers (on the sides of the pavers). Make sure the edge of the stencil remains perfectly flush with the top of the pavers. This stencil will prevent the abrasive from eroding between the joints.

Next, lay the pavers on the floor in your blast room and bind them together using ratchet binder straps. Apply the cut stencils to each section and then mask off the joints with narrow strips of stencil as needed. Then blast away. Some companies are capable of doing do this in a vertical manner with some sort of fixture.

I'm sure there are other ways of doing it, but that's just my $.02.


JB

 

[Gino]

You're gonna need to be very careful that some bricks do not blast differently from others.... or even shatter some of them. There's a process for using a very thick gel and blasting very little by very little. Once you have gotten to the depth you need, you wash away the gel with some sort of solution. Sorry to be vague, but I only made the patterns for this guy and never saw it first hand.

 

[Rachel McCartney]

Thanks you for your quick reply!! That is super helpful information. We use flexi and I have already found a tutorial video on how to tile artwork. I may be new to the business but my boss has been engraving for 10ish years I think.. so I have already learned so much and can definitely wrap my mind around how to do this. We were talking about laying all of the pavers on the ground then building a tight frame to keep them in place. I didn't think about the joints or spaces in between mask.. so that is really helpful advise! Also.... my whole family is from the mitten but I am a Tankee (Texan raised by Yankees hehe)

 

[Rachel McCartney]

Thanks! I think we are going to use a very smooth Lueders Limestone paver.. and are planning to blast them all together instead of individually.

 

[James Burke]

Thanks! I think we are going to use a very smooth Lueders Limestone paver.. and are planning to blast them all together instead of individually.

If the pavers don't have spacer lugs, you should be able to bind them tight enough to avoid having to use something between the joints.


JB

 

[James Burke]

You're gonna need to be very careful that some bricks do not blast differently from others.... or even shatter some of them. There's a process for using a very thick gel and blasting very little by very little. Once you have gotten to the depth you need, you wash away the gel with some sort of solution. Sorry to be vague, but I only made the patterns for this guy and never saw it first hand.

Not sure of the process you're speaking of, Gino. But limestone cuts like a butter. The only thing to be cautious about is over blasting on the fine details.

Here in Michigan, the limestone would not be a feasible option due to the need for salting throughout the winter months. In the worse case scenario, ice melters containing magnesium chloride and calcium chloride will literally destroy the limestone pavers. And even the best case scenario, the aforementioned products will cause permanent efflorescence problems for the life of the project.

We did a beautifully engraved limestone sign for a retirement community about ten years ago. Since we were the third-party, we did not have any input on the materials chosen by the contractor. The sign sits back about fifty feet from a busy road, and as you can imagine, the salt spray from wet winter roads have made the sign a complete mess. In their case, they should have chosen something other than porous stone.

JB

 

[Gino]

The OP mentioned brick, so I thought that's what they were blasting away on. Can't tell ya how many bricks have air pockets in them and BAM !!! There goes a brick, right out da window.

 

[James Burke]

The OP mentioned brick, so I thought that's what they were blasting away on. Can't tell ya how many bricks have air pockets in them and BAM !!! There goes a brick, right out da window.

Over 10,000 bricks engraved here, and nothing gone awry as far as what you mention. No matter the brick density, clay pavers are microscopically porous and often contain coarser minerals (shale, etc...) and can not explode when engraving.

Potter's clay, on the other hand is a different animal and has to be pugged to remove entrapped air, otherwise it has a tendency to self-destruct in the kiln.


JB

 

[Rachel McCartney]

Over 10,000 bricks engraved here, and nothing gone awry as far as what you mention. No matter the brick density, clay pavers are microscopically porous and often contain coarser minerals (shale, etc...) and can not explode when engraving.

Potter's clay, on the other hand is a different animal and has to be pugged to remove entrapped air, otherwise it has a tendency to self-destruct in the kiln.


JB

We have issues finding ideal pavers around these parts... the clay pavers either have lots of texture that causes our paint to bleed.. or they are constantly sold out. The concrete pavers are so full of pebbles that blasting them leads to loss of definition. But we have never broke a paver while engraving as far as I know. There was a company in San Antonio that created his own brick blend specifically for engraving.... and he went out of business. Finding good engravable bricks has been more daunting than any design challenge I have come across so far.

 

[James Burke]

We have issues finding ideal pavers around these parts... the clay pavers either have lots of texture that causes our paint to bleed.. or they are constantly sold out. The concrete pavers are so full of pebbles that blasting them leads to loss of definition. But we have never broke a paver while engraving as far as I know. There was a company in San Antonio that created his own brick blend specifically for engraving.... and he went out of business. Finding good engravable bricks has been more daunting than any design challenge I have come across so far.

Belden Brick is fairly regional here in the Midwest. The clay pavers are extremely hard and dense and engrave perfectly. Paint does not bleed. If you're not already using lithichrome paint, do so now. It dries within a few seconds and does not bleed when properly applied.

Here's a link to some real funky stuff we did with the Belden bricks and other stone using just sign vinyl for stencil. The bricks are cut deeply enough to where you can easily see the tight grain structure.

JB

https://signs101.com/threads/brick-stone-engraving.154616/

 

[Rachel McCartney]

Belden Brick is fairly regional here in the Midwest. The clay pavers are extremely hard and dense and engrave perfectly. Paint does not bleed. If you're not already using lithichrome paint, do so now. It dries within a few seconds and does not bleed when properly applied.

Here's a link to some real funky stuff we did with the Belden bricks and other stone using just sign vinyl for stencil. The bricks are cut deeply enough to where you can easily see the tight grain structure.

JB

https://signs101.com/threads/brick-stone-engraving.154616/

Awesome!! They actually have a dealer about 50 miles from here so I am definitely going to look into it more. You said you used sign vinyl? Is this the same vinyl used to etch glass? How did it not wear thru?!

 

[James Burke]

Awesome!! They actually have a dealer about 50 miles from here so I am definitely going to look into it more. You said you used sign vinyl? Is this the same vinyl used to etch glass? How did it not wear thru?!

Definitely check them out. You'll be impressed by the quality and variety. The sign vinyl process is something we're still developing so I can't say much. But you can achieve similar results with 10 mil Hartco 310 stencil.

JB

 

[Rachel McCartney]

Definitely check them out. You'll be impressed by the quality and variety. The sign vinyl process is something we're still developing so I can't say much. But you can achieve similar results with 10 mil Hartco 310 stencil.

JB

I saw that you were possibly working on a patent... let me know when its ready! I am all for new techniques!! Thanks for all of your help! I will probably be posting here often... stone engraving is such a niche market and there aren't many people around here that still use sandblasting. So no one to bounce ideas off of or ask for advice! So glad I found y'all

 

[James Burke]

I saw that you were possibly working on a patent... let me know when its ready! I am all for new techniques!! Thanks for all of your help! I will probably be posting here often... stone engraving is such a niche market and there aren't many people around here that still use sandblasting. So no one to bounce ideas off of or ask for advice! So glad I found y'all

There used to be a forum called Cutting Edge Sandcarving. It was, without doubt, the very best of its kind in the history of forever (ok, that was a bit much). But anyway, it only lasted just short of ten years and was packed full of just about everything one would want to learn about sandcarving.

Rayzist has a nice Facebook page you can join, but it's not the caliber of what CES was in its heyday.

You're correct in the assumption of how few people still sandblast (monument companies still do, but there are now several new options available to them). And beyond that, there's even fewer places to go for learning on a professional level. Ron Clamp holds special shape-carving classes at this shop in NC, and a few places down toward Elberton, GA also have training available.

As you've most likely seen, the big push now is toward laser engraving...which has its applications but it's not the solution for everything. Neither is sandblasting, but it does have a lot more applications dollar for dollar than any other process.

As for me, I've been slogging it out with the trial and error method (sometimes the trial by fire method when things really get messy). After 16 years at it, I still learn new things every day.


JB