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thoughts on the Vision 2550 engraver router?

GypsyGraphics

New Member
we're doing a lot of design, surveying, drafting ect. for interior id/ada signage (mostly large apartment, condo and office complexes), and are considering keeping the work in-house. thinking the Vision 2550, might be a good choice, and wondering what others experience or advice might be with it… good bad or otherwise.
 

iSign

New Member
are you planning to use it for both drilling to manually insert braille dots/beads, as well as using a 2 part applique (tactile letter color) adhered to a base substrate (background color) and cutting through applique to weed for raised letters & pictograms/logos?

I've used engravers for this process, but I wouldn't think that was right for you.

Maybe they are doing entirely different things with engraving equipment these days, but based on the ancient history of my experience, I would expect you & Rick will be so inclined to sell each client of the very best option for them, with a far less limited array of material & production method options, then the capabilities you would have in-house after such a purchase..

..meaning the financial temptation of steering a client to that which serves you best, instead of what serves them best, would make the most business sense, but I think I know both of you enough that neither of you would do that. This leads me back to thinking you will ultimately end up with a similar perspective to my own, of the topic of producing ADA signs.

The most valuable part of sign planning & way finding projects, is the design & sales skill, coupled with a comprehensive understanding of the industries available manufacturing solutions.

I think the production should be left to the specialists, many of whom are geared specifically toward wholesale, and as such, possess the costly array of machines & inventory to offer numerous plastics, metals, photopolymer technologies, frames of every size, finish & criteria, as well as the staff to handle large jobs & still offer quick turnaround times.

I'm under the impression you are staying fairly busy already & as much as I know you love tools, and getting your hands dirty in the shop, for a change from desk work... I personally think the learning curve, & initial equipment costs won't result in enough production capability to justify taking that plunge.

If you just wanted to be able to serve those low end apartment complex clients, with low end ADA signs, then maybe this will work, however I picture you more interested in corporate clients like Apple, with impressive sign types, that our different every day, requiring more equipment than an engraver.

I'm fully prepared to find out I'm way off base however, because my experience in running engravers for ADA signs was nearly 20 years ago.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Wow…. i wasn’t really prepared to go into this much detail. i was just asking if anyone had experience with the Vision 2550, and their thoughts on that particular machine.
i’m sure this is waaaaay more information than anyone wants to, or will read… but you asked so here goes…

Are you planning to use it for both drilling to manually insert braille dots/beads, as well as using a 2 part applique (tactile letter color) adhered to a base substrate (background color) and cutting through applique to weed for raised letters & pictograms/logos?

the machine i’m referring to also routs up to 24”…. so there are considerably more uses for it than just ADA signs. being that i have a love for tools, we already have a shop full of tools that would support the router for other types of signs.

I've used engravers for this process, but I wouldn't think that was right for you.
Maybe they are doing entirely different things with engraving equipment these days, but based on the ancient history of my experience, I would expect you & Rick will be so inclined to sell each client of the very best option for them, with a far less limited array of material & production method options, then the capabilities you would have in-house after such a purchase..
..meaning the financial temptation of steering a client to that which serves you best, instead of what serves them best, would make the most business sense, but I think I know both of you enough that neither of you would do that. This leads me back to thinking you will ultimately end up with a similar perspective to my own, of the topic of producing ADA signs.


in a nutshell…. the very reason we want to take this on! we design way cool stuff, only to have the sign compamy, ask us to dumb it down, so they can keep it all in-house. your assumption that that’s the kind of work we’d do or even want to do, is wrong…. we have wholesale vendors for that.

interestingly enough… my lack of “ancient history” and/or inexperience seems to be more an advantage here, than a disadvantage. i look at a company like www.takeform.com who used this method and they are producing some very nice signs. nicer than what is wholesaled to most sign shops. i guess learning this type of work this past year has been an advantage to me because i can ask... why can't we do it this way? well really it’s more like an overzealous…. “we, can totally do that!!!” followed by a… ummm right?” then the guy with the experience, after careful consideration says, if there a chance i’m right… “go for it.” (which by the way is one of my favorite things about working with rick, he’s annoyingly smart, but it doesn’t get in his way of being open to the, sometimes overzealous, ideas of someone who doesn’t know any better).

what i DO know about this work is:
it's too difficult to make photopolymer signs compliant in california, but in time we will have use for one… etched signs have the same issues. PermaSign way may be our next step once this takes off.

The most valuable part of sign planning & way finding projects, is the design & sales skill, coupled with a comprehensive understanding of the industries available manufacturing solutions.

and what is unique about us, is that we actually do have a comprehensive understanding of this and are fielding leads to start this venture by offering this to our clients… and the response is very positive.

I think the production should be left to the specialists, many of whom are geared specifically toward wholesale, and as such, possess the costly array of machines & inventory to offer numerous plastics, metals, photopolymer technologies, frames of every size, finish & criteria, as well as the staff to handle large jobs & still offer quick turnaround times.

i wholeheartedly agree on most of this…. it's not like we are clueless to the production methods. having worked with rick for a year now, i’ve been taking in all i can from the projects we’ve been working on, and of course from rick’s experience…. which is a wealth of knowledge in raster braille, engraving, routing, photopolymer and etched. as well as finishing with either laminates or screen printing and painting and the access we have to direct to print on full color backgrounds as well as the tools and experience to support the machine.

I'm under the impression you are staying fairly busy already & as much as I know you love tools, and getting your hands dirty in the shop, for a change from desk work... I personally think the learning curve, & initial equipment costs won't result in enough production capability to justify taking that plunge.

true... i do love tools, and much prefer the shop over the office... and have been busy.
after my surveying work to Washington DC and San Francisco, i realized that we can potentially service clients throughout the US by making a superior sign than the vendors who have been supplying us. it's hard to find decent wholesale vendors that have the capabilities we are looking for and an affordable wholesale price. makes sense to bring it in-house since i already know someone who has experience in producing them.

the thing is… we have been only designing and calling out the specifications, and allowing these so called "specialist" to make these signs. after several blunders on their part, this puts us in a position to have to answer for them. what better way of elieviating that than handling it ourselves… knowing if things take-off… we can train our built-in workforce (we have 7 boys between us, some able to take on full-time work, some part-time while going to school and two willing to help in a pinch) leaving us the ability to design.

If you just wanted to be able to serve those low end apartment complex clients, with low end ADA signs, then maybe this will work, however I picture you more interested in corporate clients like Apple, with impressive sign types, that our different every day, requiring more equipment than an engraver.

i’m certain that the signs we will be producing are not at all in the low-end category. i think the model Takeform uses is something that is worth looking into while funding the design work we want to do. once our contractors license is finalized, we can also start contracting and installing using the same workforce we have on-hand.

I'm fully prepared to find out I'm way off base however, because my experience in running engravers for ADA signs was nearly 20 years ago.


last year, we surveyed and designed 2 1/2 million dollars worth of signs. most were interior ADA using the raster/engraving method, we are online to design signs for a large management company with 1800 properties. this opportunity seems possible with the experience and funds we already have in place as well as clients willing to give us this work. once the contractors license is in place, then we have the ability to run the whole job while partnering with a construction firm with their own workforce. a lot has changed since we worked together 2 years ago, so being off base is understandable.

it's not like we found a barn and said, "LET'S PUT ON A SHOW!" it's more like... why let this opportunity pass us up. we have the skills, experience, client base, funds and unbridled energy to do this.
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i'm going to be seriously impressed if anyone reads all that :ROFLMAO:
a boobie-prize might me in order
 

iSign

New Member
i'm going to be seriously impressed if anyone reads all that :ROFLMAO:
a boobie-prize might me in order

...might BE a prize...

:) I just wanted to show you I read to the end! (& reminisce the old days of alerting each other to typos)

Gotta run to watch the game, but thanks for the clarifications... sounds like more detail leads to more understanding... but without a Brady bunch worth of entry level manpower (that I wasn't aware of) I would have still thought engraved sign production could be outsourced profitably before using up yours and Ricks valuable time lining up the next 1600 properties... but the extended team does make that theory less of an issue...

I hope bumping you thread with unsolicited curiosity on the backstory, will at least help your thread get noticed by someone with the nuts and bolts feedback you're looking for on that one machine!

Almost kick-off... Aloha!
 

CES020

New Member
Gigi, we don't own one, but I know a number of people that have owned them over the years and I became friends with the local rep who had been selling engraving equipment for 20 years or so. We used to talk about it all the time and he said the machines were very solid and well built and he didn't have anything bad to say about the company or their machines. When our Xenetech dies, which it will, since it's running Windows 95 :), we'll replace it with a Vision.

I've seen very very little negative about them over the years and what I did see was mainly legacy items that were really old. I know that doesn't help a lot, but it's all I can offer.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
We run a vision 1624 engraver and use the raster system for making Ada signs, it's a pretty good setup, we don't use it as a router but if you have specific questions about the engraving/Ada side I will try my best to help.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
If i had to qualify all of my experience, it would have been a lengthy mechanical answer
that would give a tooth drilling a better experience... I don't think I could have said
it better Gigi.

As for me... I was never thrilled with producing ADA signs. I've produced them too,
it can be a mind numbing experience cranking out hundreds of signs a day especially
when you are working for one of the biggest advocates of compliant signage. I got it
"drilled" in my head all the requirements and methods available. I liked the work
of running an engraver, but I really wanted to design at that time. Eventually I became
their main designer. But this woman taught me too well. Gigi can attest to my tirades
as I see subpar ADA signs with poor translations, non-compliant type and color contrasts
on other projects. I care about the product I design.

The main use for the machine is ADA signs, but we are going to make office signs like
these... http://artsigns.com/ and dimensional stock and custom art/wall products.
Later we will add a printer and larger CNC if the work can support it. My main client
prints miles of barricade banners, sales banners and leasing office graphics. So who
knows where this takes us.

Gigi has been working on drafting, location plans, and sign schedules. She's a quick
study. So quick that she asked what the signs retailed for. Gigi noticed the amounts of
signs being designed, so when I showed her proposals with all the pricing, she saw an
opportunity that I had thought about... but way over analyzed and dropped the idea.
Of the projects we worked on where braille was used, all were raster/engraved.
All mid to high end close to the level of Takeform... I have some old history with a
founding employee of that company as well as Doug's old boss, as well as a few in the
Access Board, the people who make the ADA standards, geez I can read most braille.
I've used routers, engravers, photopolymer machines, hot stamping, painting and installing
metal etching and screen printing and ran large format printers. Oh and we can design, survey
message schedules, specify and project manage these jobs. I would think if anyone
could do well in this business, it could be me and Gigi.

I believe her inexperience works for her (and for me) She impressed my clients and
she's been invaluable in making our survey and design process work more efficiently.
Simply put, her strengths are my weaknesses... now it might be a girl/boy way of
looking at things. But her way of convincing me of getting a potential 3-400k of just ADA
signs a year was brilliant. So good that it could generate more money than me and her
would bring in combined just designing. That would make her my equal, not in "experience"
but having the idea, working it out in a way I can see things because I might be too
experienced, asking if the boys were interested, then presenting it. Now, there are bugs
to work out... and who knows, it may not happen all that soon, but I would be a complete
idiot if I didn't try.

This may take our work to place where I may not enjoy it as much for now. I have done
design work all over the world for Pete's sake and design work all over the country now...
but I also like making things. I'm confident that Gigi's system she is setting up will make
it easier to give us choices of working in the office, in the shop, or installing. Most of the
work we are looking forward to designing is her making. Gotta run with what's working.
I like having choices and something I'm looking forward too.

Gigi, this isn't buttering you up, you were going to make the grape leaves anyway.

Anyway, thanks for the responses. Hoping we get more on this particular machine. Seems
like a solid machine.
 

CES020

New Member
I'm not sure the Vision is the right job for that. You might check with these guys http://www.q1engravers.com. They have a very robust machine and they are in California as well, so maybe you can go see them in action. At trade shows, while everyone else is drilling holes in plastic or cutting rowmark, they are cutting aluminum with their machines. The guy "Fred" is well known in the trade, and he's a very knowledgeable guy. I feel confident in saying you can trust his machines.

I think they are a little pricer, but they are a lot more heavy duty.

Cutting dimensional letters with one of those can be a challenge. They won't come with any real work holding devices. Sticky mats are commonly used because all the pressure is down or very light pressure. When you want to cut letters out of 3/8" acrylic, it takes a lot of side force so it will pop it off the sticky mat and you'll have to find another way to hold it. On our router, we have a vacuum table, so the material is held down with a vacuum, but I've not seen much of that in the small format machines. Just something to be aware of, if you aren't already, and make sure you see in action. I'd hate to see you buy a machine and think it would be perfect for doing various things only to find out it won't do them easily.

We've done a lot of signs like those in the link and we have a rotary engraver, lasers, and a router. If I can help answer any questions at all, I'd be happy to. Just ask publicly or privately and if I don't know the answer, I'll try and put you in touch with people that do. I'm sure you'll find the right machine and you'll love making those things.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
i'm out on a survey at the moment but didn't want to wait till i got back tonight to respond to those offering, much appreciated, advice! (here and in PMs)

i'm certainly open to other options, and will look into any machine someone suggests or recommends. i've watched every video i can find on the vision 2550... but seeing it in action is great advice. i'm glad to hear it has a good reputation, but do need to make sure it's the right tool :loveya: for the job.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
I believe her inexperience works for her (and for me) She impressed my clients and
she's been invaluable in making our survey and design process work more efficiently.
Simply put, her strengths are my weaknesses...

ummmmm..... gosh...... thanks :loveya:
[video=youtube;VcwNJg5mw8U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcwNJg5mw8U[/video]
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
We run a vision 1624 engraver and use the raster system for making Ada signs, it's a pretty good setup, we don't use it as a router but if you have specific questions about the engraving/Ada side I will try my best to help.

thanks! i do have a few questions, regarding the 1624 size...
do you have it pretty much set up to do ada all the time and that's why you don't use it for routing or is the size limiting the way you use it?

i was thinking the 25x50 would give me a better chance of using the router option. i do want to be able to route, but thought this would be a good way to start until i had work to support the additional equipment. it could be that the machine ends up being tied up doing ada and won't make sense to pull it off that work to do the less frequent or small quantity routing projects.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
thanks! i do have a few questions, regarding the 1624 size...
do you have it pretty much set up to do ada all the time and that's why you don't use it for routing or is the size limiting the way you use it?

i was thinking the 25x50 would give me a better chance of using the router option. i do want to be able to route, but thought this would be a good way to start until i had work to support the additional equipment. it could be that the machine ends up being tied up doing ada and won't make sense to pull it off that work to do the less frequent or small quantity routing projects.

We don't use our 1624 for routing because it only has an engraving spindle, not a full on router head, so it wouldn't stand up to routing, the machine you are looking at has interchangeable heads, so you would do Ada stuff with the engraving head, and switch it to the router head for cutting and routing.

i think changing between the heads is pretty quick and easy, but I'm sure after a while it will be a major PITA! In my opinion, I would get a used 1624 for doing Braille, and a dedicated cnc router for routing, for the price of the 2550 you should be able to get both.

Vision engravers are pretty tough machines, our old one was 20 years old when we lost it in the fire and it was still a workhorse. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used one again if need be. Also, I would skip the auto raster option and go with the manual pen inserter, I've heard bad things about the auto raster not inserting beads properly, if you are doing a lot of Braille, hire someone to insert beads.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
CES020.... the webiste it difficult to navigate (i have little patients for that) but i did find Fred has a lot of videos on Youtube.... so i've been watching those this afternoon.

I'm not sure the Vision is the right job for that. You might check with these guys http://www.q1engravers.com. They have a very robust machine and they are in California as well, so maybe you can go see them in action. At trade shows, while everyone else is drilling holes in plastic or cutting rowmark, they are cutting aluminum with their machines. The guy "Fred" is well known in the trade, and he's a very knowledgeable guy. I feel confident in saying you can trust his machines.

I think they are a little pricer, but they are a lot more heavy duty.


the webiste it difficult to navigate (i have little patients site that) but i did find Fred has a lot of videos on Youtube.... so i've been watching those this afternoon. it does look like a nice machine and being in so cal sure is a plus! i really like this video, where he's cutting 1/4" aluminum!

[video=youtube;NKQ3-Of1ksE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKQ3-Of1ksE[/video]

Cutting dimensional letters with one of those can be a challenge. They won't come with any real work holding devices. Sticky mats are commonly used because all the pressure is down or very light pressure. When you want to cut letters out of 3/8" acrylic, it takes a lot of side force so it will pop it off the sticky mat and you'll have to find another way to hold it. On our router, we have a vacuum table, so the material is held down with a vacuum, but I've not seen much of that in the small format machines. Just something to be aware of, if you aren't already, and make sure you see in action. I'd hate to see you buy a machine and think it would be perfect for doing various things only to find out it won't do them easily.

the table top looks just like the vision 2550, with slots for clamping material and setting up jigs.

[video=youtube;XZ7CAbvaMZg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ7CAbvaMZg[/video]

We've done a lot of signs like those in the link and we have a rotary engraver, lasers, and a router. If I can help answer any questions at all, I'd be happy to. Just ask publicly or privately and if I don't know the answer, I'll try and put you in touch with people that do. I'm sure you'll find the right machine and you'll love making those things.

thanks for the advice and encouragement. with the right machine... i'm sure i'll have a blast with it!
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
watsons...

exactly what i was thinking..... that changing out the heads, while not difficult could prove to be a nuisance, especailly if there's a lot of ada work.
when i was watching the videos... i was thinking the manual bead inserter made more sense too. why stop the machine from running, if someone can take on a quick easy task and let the machine crank out the stuff you can't do by hand.

gosh... a work horse after 20 years (god rest it's soul)... that's quite a testimonial!

oh.... and i was looking for a used Vision... anything this side of the Pecos.
a tool roadtrip.... what could be better?
i'll do the driving... rick drives like an old man.
 

Biker Scout

New Member
Plenty of options for vacuum hold down tables that will sit right on top of any router table. Just look at the options on ebay "CNC Vacuum Table" many of them work with a small shop vac. Or even look into the vacuum pucks. Those allow for side and profile machining without having to worry about plunging the bit into the table or the spoil board. Plus you can to half round profiles in one pass with standard cabinet making bits.
 

AzGene

New Member
Been running the 2550 now for almost 5 years. Good solid machine. Origonally bought it for ADA application and it works just fine for that if you are not in a hurry. Use it 90% now for routing architectural blanks and use a gravograph IS900 for the ADA work. Engraving with this machine leaves alot to be desired. They provide plactic nose cones and minimum spindle pressure is way to much to prevent ghosting on most materials. Every machine in this business can do alot of things but they all have their strenghths and weaknesses. Anyway iI could give you alot more insight on the 2550 but typing is not my cup of tea. I'm old school and can convey verbally in a minute what would take me 10 minutes to type. Give me a call with any questions on this and I will be happy to help you.


Gene
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Plenty of options for vacuum hold down tables that will sit right on top of any router table. Just look at the options on ebay "CNC Vacuum Table" many of them work with a small shop vac. Or even look into the vacuum pucks. Those allow for side and profile machining without having to worry about plunging the bit into the table or the spoil board. Plus you can to half round profiles in one pass with standard cabinet making bits.

that sure an easy option, and you're right... there's a lot on ebay! definitely will keep that in mind if the one we end up with doesn't have that option.

THANKS! :thumb:
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Been running the 2550 now for almost 5 years. Good solid machine. Origonally bought it for ADA application and it works just fine for that if you are not in a hurry. Use it 90% now for routing architectural blanks and use a gravograph IS900 for the ADA work. Engraving with this machine leaves alot to be desired. They provide plactic nose cones and minimum spindle pressure is way to much to prevent ghosting on most materials. Every machine in this business can do alot of things but they all have their strenghths and weaknesses. Anyway iI could give you alot more insight on the 2550 but typing is not my cup of tea. I'm old school and can convey verbally in a minute what would take me 10 minutes to type. Give me a call with any questions on this and I will be happy to help you.


Gene
wow... what a generous offer Gene!
Rick and i will be in touch, probably next week... to pick your brain!

thanks so much! :rock-n-roll:
 

armandolo

New Member
GypsyGraphics did you end up getting the Vision 2550? I also wanted to hear thoughts on this. I have a very large "reverse engraved" job coming up and my vendor can not keep up and I want to get one for in house.

In addition to reverse engraving, I also want to have to be able to do ADA signs as we outsource that also. and thirdly, it would be nice to have cnc routing capability so I looked at the Vision 2550 and Gravograph 8000 but have not made a decision just yet.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
unfortunately armandolo, we've been totally slammed with design work. it's killing us to watching all this production work go elsewhere. when i started this thread, it looked as though, within a few weeks, we'd have time to research and purchase an engraver. now i'm thinking it'll be a couple of months before we'll have time to invest in the idea again. but I STILL WANT ONE!!!!

on the upside, by then we'll probably be able to afford a new one with a service contract, when we were originally thinking used.

where are you at in your pursuit for the right engraver?
 
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