Versaworks & Windows 10

[JulieS]

Hi!
I recently needed a new computer, so we reluctantly went with Windows 10. We are still running a Roland SolJet Pro XC-540. Our computer tech support company was able to rig it somehow (in compatibility mode?) to be able to run the Roland from my Windows 10. But then Windows did a major update at the beginning of this week, and now I'm no longer able to send (print) any jobs from Illustrator to Versaworks. Our computer guys, in trying to get it to work, have now somehow made my computer unable to print to even my desktop printer :-{

My BIG question is, are we crazy to still be trying to use our (perfectly good) old Roland?
Secondary question, is there an upgrade to Versaworks that might fix my problem? I see there's a "dual" version, but my printer isn't listed as compatible.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

My BIG question is, are we crazy to still be trying to use our (perfectly good) old Roland?

Not crazy in trying to use perfectly good legacy equipment (I'm assuming legacy due to you saying "old" Roland). The crazy part is trying to use Win 10 connected to a WAN that it gets updates in a production environment and using legacy equipment/software. With the way that the updates work in Win 10, this is going to be a perpetual problem. Based on my dad's experience with Win 10, even if you updated everything to current software, it could very well be a problem even then.

Compatibility mode may work.

I'm a huge fan of VM'ing to run older equipment and software. Depending on the resources of the host computer, that may not be an option.

The other thing would be to find an older computer with an older OS, to install it on.

Secondary question, is there an upgrade to Versaworks that might fix my problem? I see there's a "dual" version, but my printer isn't listed as compatible.

I wouldn't take a chance if it doesn't list the needed printer. May want to try with a 3rd party solution, they usually support more, not just in terms of brands, but also in terms of models.

Again, with my dad's experience in Win 10 updates, it's possible that you may still have to deal with this issue, even though it may be sporadically.

I really loathe Win 10 and so glad that I jumped off the Window's ship before I was forced to get that monstrosity.

 

[JulieS]

Thanks so much! Could you explain a little bit about what VM'ing is? I don't need to know how to do it, just how to talk to computer guys about it!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Thanks so much! Could you explain a little bit about what VM'ing is? I don't need to know how to do it, just how to talk to computer guys about it!

It's essentially running an OS within an OS (not dual booting, it is running both OSs at the same time). It is very dependent though on how well your computer is spec'ed out as far as resources go. If it's a low spec'ed computer, this will not work or certainly work very very slowly.

Only area of concern that I could see is how your printer is hooked up to your computer. That's where getting the VM to see it may be more time consuming, just depends on how everything is hooked up. Most of my machines are directly hooked up to to the computer in question, so that makes passing through to the VM very easy. If it's networked in, that could add a layer of complexity.

 

[Pitzu]

It should work with Windows Hyper-V, available in windows 10 (except Windows 10 Home Edition).
With VMware you have Unity mode that it's quite nice.

 

[HPS_Drew]

Had the same issue when upgrading to Windows 10, however I had to go back to Windows 7 to continue, dealer support suggested it was (at the time) the easiest option. Good luck.

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

 

[WildWestDesigns]

It should work with Windows Hyper-V, available in windows 10 (except Windows 10 Home Edition).

Hyper-V is Window's own VM'ing software. It replaced Virtual-PC. All the same pros and cons of VM'ing would apply to that as well since it is the same thing.

With VMware you have Unity mode that it's quite nice.

I can't speak for Hyper-V as that is a Win 10 VM solution and I just refuse to go to Win 10 unless it is just absolutely necessary, but most 3rd party VM solutions have an option like VMWare, they just call it something different. Seamless is what VirtualBox calls it. Parallels (which I believe is only a Mac solution) call it Coherence. Virtual PC only had windowed or full screen mode (what I actually use for VirtualBox on LInux, but I also have multiple monitors, so I'm not sacrificing screen real estate), so I don't imagine that Hyper-V would have their version of seamless, but I don't know.

One thing to be aware of though, is some programs don't work to well in some modes. For instance, my digitizing program (which doesn't support running their programs in VMs period, as most software vendors don't that have stable software out there, alpha and beta software is something else, but since this is a legacy program, probably don't have official support anyway) does mention that running Parallels in Coherence mode does produce problems. While Seamless mode in VirtualBox does not. So while some modes are nice, they don't always play nice with the program in question. Just something to think about.

 

[Pitzu]

We have a printer that uses a fiber optic PCI card for data transfer. It has only 32bit drivers, since they've dropped support and changed data transfer to USB in their latest printers.
Using 32 bit Windows is quite limiting, it doesn't see above 3.5 Gb of memory, so we tried to run the PCI card in VM, leaving the RIP and design software (most memory demanding) to run in Windows 64 bit.
The data transfer between RIP software and printer driver is through ethernet so it should have work. Unfortunately, in our case, it didn't, since the VM doesn't emulate all the hardware, only the basic ones (CD-ROM, Floppy, USB, Network adapter, sound adapter).
There are solutions to fix this, like passing through PCI card in Hyper-V, but it takes some time and skills to make it run, and I didn't have the time.
Another solution would have been to run VMware ESXi which runs on bare metal hardware, but that's another story.

So, for the time being, the easiest solution was to install a 32 bit Windows, as HPS_Drew said.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The data transfer between RIP software and printer driver is through ethernet so it should have work. Unfortunately, in our case, it didn't, since the VM doesn't emulate all the hardware, only the basic ones (CD-ROM, Floppy, USB, Network adapter, sound adapter).

You could try an emulation program (qemu, bochs etc). They take a bigger hit, because they do emulate the entire hardware needed for the guest. Typically, for me, this is used when wanting to run one arch os/software on a different arch (like running Windows x86 on Android (or raspberry pi etc and vice versa).

There are solutions to fix this, like passing through PCI card in Hyper-V, but it takes some time and skills to make it run, and I didn't have the time.

Typically it should just be passing through to the VM and having the necessary drivers installed within the VM. You'll have to use separate drivers as the VM doesn't typically include those within their "guest additions" (or whatever their generic driver install package is called).

At least that's how it works with passing through video cards within a VM. I can't see why that would be any different for any other hardware.

 

[Pitzu]

Hyper-V is Window's own VM'ing software. It replaced Virtual-PC. All the same pros and cons of VM'ing would apply to that as well since it is the same thing.




I can't speak for Hyper-V as that is a Win 10 VM solution and I just refuse to go to Win 10 unless it is just absolutely necessary, but most 3rd party VM solutions have an option like VMWare, they just call it something different. Seamless is what VirtualBox calls it. Parallels (which I believe is only a Mac solution) call it Coherence. Virtual PC only had windowed or full screen mode (what I actually use for VirtualBox on LInux, but I also have multiple monitors, so I'm not sacrificing screen real estate), so I don't imagine that Hyper-V would have their version of seamless, but I don't know.

One thing to be aware of though, is some programs don't work to well in some modes. For instance, my digitizing program (which doesn't support running their programs in VMs period, as most software vendors don't that have stable software out there, alpha and beta software is something else, but since this is a legacy program, probably don't have official support anyway) does mention that running Parallels in Coherence mode does produce problems. While Seamless mode in VirtualBox does not. So while some modes are nice, they don't always play nice with the program in question. Just something to think about.

In my opinion, with virtualization, you'll never have the full potential of your PC, since it uses extra PC resources (cpu time, memory, hdd space) to virtualize, translate, emulate, etc. (except bare metal hypervisors, probably).

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Depends on your setup. And what you are or aren't able to pass thru or use a work around.

Shoot, I even use a VM within a VM. No latency at all.

It just depends on what your setup is hardware wise.

 

[Pitzu]

You could try an emulation program (qemu, bochs etc). They take a bigger hit, because they do emulate the entire hardware needed for the guest. Typically, for me, this is used when wanting to run one arch os/software on a different arch (like running Windows x86 on Android (or raspberry pi etc and vice versa).



Typically it should just be passing through to the VM and having the necessary drivers installed within the VM. You'll have to use separate drivers as the VM doesn't typically include those within their "guest additions" (or whatever their generic driver install package is called).

At least that's how it works with passing through video cards within a VM. I can't see why that would be any different for any other hardware.

There is an article on Microsoft blog called "Passing through devices to Hyper-V VMs by using discrete device assignment", but it's available since Windows Server 2016 (It looks like they are working on it). But that means buying another license of Windows.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Server Hyper V does have some different functionality then their desktop version. Does that translate to their desktop?

Next time I see the folks, I'll have to try and see. Dad has Hyper V on his Win 10, only access to it that I have.

 

[Pitzu]

Server Hyper V does have some different functionality then their desktop version. Does that translate to their desktop?

Next time I see the folks, I'll have to try and see. Dad has Hyper V on his Win 10, only access to it that I have.

Hyper-V, since it's integrated in Windows, it has quite a performance (and I've tested VMware & VirtualBox on the same PC). Hyper-V had the best performance (on basic tasks).
If it had VMware's Unity mode, it would have been quite a choice.
VirtualBox in Seamless mode gave me some errors and closed.

I didn't know there are differences between server Hyper-V and desktop.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Hyper-V, since it's integrated in Windows, it has quite a performance (and I've tested VMware & Virtual Box on the same PC). Hyper-V had the best performance (on basic tasks).
If it had VMware's Unity mode, it would have been quite a choice.
VirtualBox in Seamless mode gave me some errors and closed.

I don't use seamless regularly. I tried it initially. No errors that I had then, nor with VMware (both on Linux) with unity. Unity was more polished though. I just use full screen on one monitor (Cintiq, 3rd monitor) and run with it.

 

[Pitzu]

I don't use seamless regularly. I tried it initially. No errors that I had then, nor with VMware (both on Linux) with unity. Unity was more polished though. I just use full screen on one monitor (Cintiq, 3rd monitor) and run with it.

What I liked the most was the " Multiseat desktop virtualization", running multiple seats from one PC unit. Love the idea, less power consumption, good for basic tasks (though I've seen they're running very demanding aplications in this configuration).

..but that's another topic

 

[Andy D]

FYI I just loaded Versaworks on Windows 10 & with one small issue, it installed and works fine.

 

[phototec]

FYI I just loaded Versaworks on Windows 10 & with one small issue, it installed and works fine.

What was the one small issue when you loaded Versaworks on Windows 10?

 

[Kemik]

What was the one small issue when you loaded Versaworks on Windows 10?

This is an old tread, but I've installed VersaWorks 5 on Windows 10 and 11 with no issues. I don't see the problem.

 

[garyroy]

I use 5.5 on Windows 10 every day. Work's great on 2 computers.