Who's responsible for sign maintenance/parts?

[gnubler]

I'm doing a job with a backlit directory sign where a previous tenant had two of the dividing retainers removed to double up their space on the sign. That tenant is gone now (along with the retainers that probably ended up at some other sign shop) and the sign is being reverted back to having four panels for four tenants. I already ordered the retainer pieces and there's going to be some welding done, then painting it to match the cabinet. I kicked all this onto my customer's invoice and they said they're not paying for it. I agree that they, as tenants, shouldn't have to pay for components of the sign beyond their own panels, and that the landlord/property owner should reimburse me for these costs. He should have billed the last tenant who had the sign modified and didn't leave it the way they found it. Should I contact the landlord or am I screwed?

Thoughts?

 

[Gino]

At this point, the new tenant is responsible. They asked for the work to have it changed. They pay for it. In all honesty, you should not have started on anything without contacting the sign owner and finding out how to handle things, first. Doing things bassackwards is always getting you in trouble. Before landing a job, you need to research more thoroughly what needs to be done and who is responsible for what. Then codes and permits, then you start a job. Not the other way around. Unless the owner and tenant split it, it's gonna be on you. No way to bill an ex-tenant. They'll just flip ya the bird on something as flimsy as that accusation.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Gnubler, this should of been discussed prior to you ordering anything. Did they mention the retainer before you bid the job? When you did mockups, did it include sectioning off the panel??? At what point was this information given to you?

If they asked you about this AFTER paying a deposit, then it's called "additional scope". They need to pay for the change order... either them or the landlord, but that is not your problem. I wouldn't be ordering or moving forward with anything unless they approve the additional cost.

 

[gnubler]

This project has been going on for months and all of the above was addressed from the start - permits, etc. It started out as projects for two businesses in the same building at the same time, and I split the cost of the new retainers between them. Everyone saw mockups, including the landlord who signed off for the permits. I asked him about the missing retainers and he contacted the former tenant, but no luck, and he offered to pitch in for some of the cost. Then one customer disappeared on me, never paid a deposit, so I moved forward with the other one and didn't need the new retainers. Now the second customer is back and wanting to shuffle all the panels around to their correct "assigned" positions, and here we are. I have a feeling I'm going to end up eating this one.

But back to my main question without all the specifics of this job in particular: are tenants responsible for sign/building components like this? Or should they work it out with their landlord to get reimbursed, or should I bill the landlord directly? Like when bulbs burn out, who pays for and replaces them? The landlord, right?

 

[Gino]

It all depends on how the landlord, steering committee or the management group has it all set up. Everyone has different policies. There's no one rule fits all.

We have landlords who will do it all and service their signs once a year and we have others who say, let them f*ckin' do it. We deal mostly with management companies and they generally take care of it, but they run it by the owners first.

In your last post, you were doing things without a deposit, so there's mistake number uno.

 

[gnubler]

I didn't do anything without a deposit. They paid for logo design and art time for all the mockups, then the waiting game began. Then when the customer came in last week and threw money at me I didn't even recognize him at first, it had been that long and I figured the project had been abandoned. I never really had gray hair until I started a sign shop. And, increased wine consumption.

On a similar note, or maybe for a separate thread, for those who replace burned out bulbs in cabinets what's your procedure? Do you offer to replace bulbs if any are burned out while you're up there on the lift anyway and add it to the invoice? Or is it a whole separate job because you have to order certain bulbs in? Every cabinet I've looked in so far has different size bulbs and it's not something I want to keep in stock.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I don't know about with signs but generally speaking, you change out all of the bulbs and ballasts at the same time. Then, dispose of them as hazardous waste and keep your receipt. Get an account at your local electrical supply house if you don't want to stock anything.

 

[CanuckSigns]

In regards to your original question, I would send an email to your 2 clients plus the landlord, tell them that the following modifications need to be done at a cost of $xxx, who should you make the invoice out to? Let them figure it out and get back to you. I would say the landlord should pay, but who knows.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Gnubler.... did you answer your own question? You said the second guy backed out but now he's back in the picture? Doesn't that mean that the split cost of the retainer is now taken care of??

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You shouldn't have to eat anything unless you messed up. If the clients want to go changing things around...then RE-QUOTE it! Communication is key here.

As far as lamps go, that should of been done in the initial survey. When you are up there measuring the panels, look inside and take pictures of the wording on the lamps and pictures of ballast. Then offer to replamp it while you are in there. I tell them it's XX amount for all new lamps, PLUS XX for ballasts if they need to be repaired. I keep 4 different types of ballasts on the truck and don't have to run to an electrical supply store if I need something. Also keep a stack of 12v LED drivers. But you need to be licensed to do that work. I don't stock lamps anymore, I just order them as needed.

 

[gnubler]

Gnubler.... did you answer your own question? You said the second guy backed out but now he's back in the picture? Doesn't that mean that the split cost of the retainer is now taken care of??

No, I dropped the retainer installation entirely with the first customer after three months of waiting, thinking the second customer had abandoned the project. I was wrong. Sigh.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

OK... so can you add it back in there now? Tell the second guy that he is responsible now that he wants to move forward. He waited so long that the original deal to split it is off the table. This thread with you is like talking to a teenager.

 

[gnubler]

Good to know, thanks for the input on bulbs. I'm not licensed and haven't been asked to replace any so I wasn't sure how to handle it if it comes up.

 

[gnubler]

OK... so can you add it back in there now? Tell the second guy that he is responsible now that he wants to move forward. He waited so long that the original deal to split it is off the table.

Yup, that's exactly what's happened. I added the entire cost of the new retainers onto their estimate and they're saying they don't want to pay for it. My quotes are only good for 30 days and months have passed...but now the issue is who pays for the parts, customer or property owner?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

How much are we talking about? I would say eat it and move on because this was handled poorly on your part. Learn a lesson and don't split the cost of something without telling each party what you are doing, and if one backs out they are responsible for the whole thing. You should of told the second one that they need to pony up or decline the job.

 

[gnubler]

Agreed, but I'm still going to ask the landlord to cover the costs, it's worth a shot. It's his sign and his former tenant who dismantled it to begin with.

 

[MNT_Printhead]

I didn't do anything without a deposit. They paid for logo design and art time for all the mockups, then the waiting game began. Then when the customer came in last week and threw money at me I didn't even recognize him at first, it had been that long and I figured the project had been abandoned. I never really had gray hair until I started a sign shop. And, increased wine consumption.

On a similar note, or maybe for a separate thread, for those who replace burned out bulbs in cabinets what's your procedure? Do you offer to replace bulbs if any are burned out while you're up there on the lift anyway and add it to the invoice? Or is it a whole separate job because you have to order certain bulbs in? Every cabinet I've looked in so far has different size bulbs and it's not something I want to keep in stock.

You must have it easy if you still have hair on your head!

 

[MNT_Printhead]

No one has mentioned that you are missing your opporuntity to up-sale to a LED retro fit given the increased life span and cost savings of having someone come out and replace a single bulb or all every few years.

 

[gnubler]

That's kind of what I was asking about earlier, replacing or updating bulbs while we have the lift there. I'm not licensed or experienced enough to get into that right now.

 

[MNT_Printhead]

That's kind of what I was asking about earlier, replacing or updating bulbs while we have the lift there. I'm not licensed or experienced enough to get into that right now.

LEDs are pretty straight forward, a vendor can help make sure you have the right parts and teach you about the color ratings and proper spacing. I am not big time and have little experience in electrical, but have been retro fitting a few 3x6s and repairing them the last few years. If you learn about it, you will see it is nothing to be scared of and quite simple - just don't be scared of learning.