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Attaching aluminum composite panel to post

SignManiac

New Member
I use both methods, fasteners through face and blind install with VHB. I'm paranoid and prefer to use both methods whenever possible. I don't like putting screws through a sign face by themselves, but often hide them behind a graphic element like a star, diamond, or bullet so that you don't see the hardware. You can buy really nice plastic caps that snap over the screw, lag bolt, as well. I think they call them snap caps and you can paint them to match the background color.

On this sign, my tapcons are hidden beneath the stars as an example.
 

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Billct2

Active Member
I agree, for that type of sign. But little aluminum composite signs can be done with tape & glue.
 

gnemmas

New Member
The "aluminum surfaces" in the Composite panel are so thin, if we tighten the bolt & washer too much, it will crack through the face.
 

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
That's a good approach. If it were me, I would use 2" aluminum angle for your two 12" lengths. Then I would apply VHB tape to the portion of the post that will contact the ACM as well as to the two legs of the aluminum angle that will contact the ACM. A few beads of silicone for good measure and you'll be good to go.

Not an installer here, but just curious. Where do you use the silicone? Do you put it parallel to the VHB and use it as an additional adhesive, or do you seal around the mounting bracket not allowing the elements to come in contact with the edge of the tape?
 

Moze

Precision Sign Services
Not an installer here, but just curious. Where do you use the silicone? Do you put it parallel to the VHB and use it as an additional adhesive, or do you seal around the mounting bracket not allowing the elements to come in contact with the edge of the tape?

The tape can hold up to the elements without issue, so that's not something I worry about when applying it.

If I were to use 1" angle on each side of the 2" post as the OP mentioned, I would put four 2" lengths of VHB tape down each of the lengths of aluminum angle. I would do the same down the center of the 2" post. This leaves all kinds of rooms for dollops of silicone which aren't even needed - it's just an added reassurance.

With the above method, that would give 8 square inches of tape on each length of angle and 8 square inches on the post, which would be 24 square inches total. One square inch of tape can withstand 70 pounds per square inch of dynamic shear. If you do the math, you can see why much larger sign structures (and skyscrapers and jet planes and UFO's) are built using VHB when mechanical fasteners aren't an option.
 

medavez

New Member
Thanks!

I'm glad to see that everyone is passionate about their work!

Just got off the phone with 3M (great support BTW).

I'm going to use 3M VHB 5952 along the length of the aluminum angle. Then use a small piece (maybe 1") to attach the panel to the post; just to hold it in place as I drive the self-tappers through the angle and into the post.

I wanted to stay away from liquid or viscous adhesive simply because of the setting time, clamping, etc.. It turns out that I'm losing nothing with the VHB. Also, I don't want to fasten the panel itself to the post too rigorously as the panel may change or rotate seasonally.

I appreciate the help and I'll be sure to update after the install, and of course, in 6 months if the thing falls off and lands on someone's toe! ;)

Thanks again!
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Not an installer here, but just curious. Where do you use the silicone? Do you put it parallel to the VHB and use it as an additional adhesive, or do you seal around the mounting bracket not allowing the elements to come in contact with the edge of the tape?

The tape can hold up to the elements without issue, so that's not something I worry about when applying it.

If I were to use 1" angle on each side of the 2" post as the OP mentioned, I would put four 2" lengths of VHB tape down each of the lengths of aluminum angle. I would do the same down the center of the 2" post. This leaves all kinds of rooms for dollops of silicone which aren't even needed - it's just an added reassurance.

With the above method, that would give 8 square inches of tape on each length of angle and 8 square inches on the post, which would be 24 square inches total. One square inch of tape can withstand 70 pounds per square inch of dynamic shear. If you do the math, you can see why much larger sign structures (and skyscrapers and jet planes and UFO's) are built using VHB when mechanical fasteners aren't an option.

Similar to what Moze said, I have installers put tape around the
perimeter of the angle, then fill the void with Lords Adhesive.

I'm not a big fan of applying it to the actual post. Most of the signs
I work with occasionally need to be serviced... usually graffiti or reprints
from fading digital prints. Though I might be able to pull the sign off
with the silicone, it may make it difficult to service.

Depending on the property, design and budget, I prefer tamper proof
sex bolts when it's time to attach the face/angles to the post. If you are
going through all the trouble of adding angles, tape and adhesive, what's
a few more seconds by adding a clean bolt attachment

I didn't see where the OP mentions the angle size, I would use 2" angle,
giving you 48 square inches of adhesion.

If this was round tubing, say 2", I mechanically attach a 1 1/2" U-channel
to the post, then attach 1 1/2" angles to the panel, slide the angles over
the channel and bolt it down.

Now I wasn't going to respond to Gino, and my post was not a response
to his BUT... a through bolt attachment with washers is the strongest.

Note: I did not say wood screws, metal screws, tapcons... any of those
on a post and you run the risk the screws easing out a little causing the sign
to rattle in moderate to heavy winds and bending out over time. I just
went to a jobsite where the installer ran tapcons though every panel on a
round post... that was a brilliant idea... maybe the little blue dots added
to the quaintness of the design.

But as a designer of some experience myself, I know that VHB and Lords on
a well finished panel and angle will outperform the sign panel, give it a clean
look and have another choices when it comes to designing sign systems with
post and panel.
 

Techman

New Member
Instead of barfing at each other whether something will work or not.
Yes I said barfing..
Why not test it yourselves.

Old school opinions verses new school opinions verses testing to get facts. The tests will come out ahead every time.

I heard 3M tape would hold a HDU panel. Rather than go into a grand mal hissy fit over an opinion it's time to check it out. So it is time to do a test.. I have one on my back door. Granted it is not large but just use some imagination.

Two pieces of black 3m Heavy duty two sided tape (red liner) from a local box store holding some HDU.
Two elements of a 3D HDU sign panel on a office door. Been there three years now. Through -30 below zero and up to about 105 in summer. The panels are still there just fine. No oozing, sliding, falling off or whatever other failure someone could come up with. There is no removing them unless one uses proper force. The tape is stronger bonded than the substrate.

The stuff works. So for the mechanical faster crowd.. Its time to take a reasonable look at alternative ways to mount a panel. The key word here is reasonable. Mount a two ton frame on a brick wall with tape is not reasonable.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I wanted to stay away from liquid or viscous adhesive simply because of the setting time, clamping, etc..

Ooops. I missed this...

If you used VHB in combination with adhesive, you don't have to worry about setting time or clamping, the VHB will hold it place while it sets...
 

TopFliteGraphics

New Member
Wow, I had no idea the VHB tape was that strong that they are using it on truck bodies and buildings! Guess I won't worry about it anymore when I use it my little sign install jobs LOL
 
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