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Affinity 1.9 Upgrade - Rooting for the little guy

twmiller24

New Member
Last year, I purchased Affinity Designer (like Illustrator), Photo (Photoshop), and Publisher (Indesign) for personal use. (We use Adobe at work, but I didn't feel like paying monthly fees for the privilege at home.) I assumed that when upgrades came, I would just purchase the upgraded software.

They just announced Affinity 1.9 ... and the upgrade is free to those of us who already have the program!

(In addition, they're offering 50% off for new customers, too...a whole suite of design tools for $75 is pretty impressive.)

I'm wondering if anyone primarily uses Affinity in their shop, and, if so, how that is working for you.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
My mom uses Photo for her work and she loves it, she stopped with CS6 Ps Extended as far as Adobe goes.

I have messed around her the version of photo that she has on the iPad (she has it on her desktop as well) and I liked it, but nothing beyond that as I don't use Win or Mac anymore, so I didn't experiment with it on that platform at all.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
It appears the biggest improvements in Affinity Designer 1.9 are the addition of a contour tool, the ability to use linked images, auto-selecting objects according to certain similar attributes and saving various workspace setups (studio presets).

Most of these features have been in applications like CorelDRAW since the 1990's. However, Affinity Designer has some unique takes on features like the contour tool (similar to Offset Path in Illustrator). IMHO, Astute Graphics' Stylism plug-in for Illustrator just blows away everything else in terms of complex outlining effects. However this contour tool in Affinity Designer offers some "live" lava-like behaviors with compounded objects.

Serif has a good description and some demonstration videos of the features on this page:
https://affinityspotlight.com/artic...Designer_1.9.932_Windows&utm_campaign=Welcome

twmiller said:
I'm wondering if anyone primarily uses Affinity in their shop, and, if so, how that is working for you.

CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator are still my main go-to tools. I'm waiting to see what Corel comes up with for version 2021. Currently I have CDR 2020 and CDR 2018 both installed on my work desktop PC due to some annoying font table bugs in CDR 2020 that never got fixed.

I bought copies of Affinity Designer for my PC and iPad Pro for a couple reasons.

The first reason was the apps were priced dirt cheap when I bought them (50% off COVID-19 sale), so it seemed like no harm to give the application a try on both platforms. Plus the iPad version gives me another drawing on screen app to go with Vectornator and Illustrator.

The second reason is just having the app on hand in case the popularity of Affinity Designer really grows. We get a decent amount of client-provided artwork, a good bit of which comes from small businesses. It's a really big ask to expect someone not doing graphic design work full time to blow $500 on a pro-level vector drawing application like CorelDRAW or get on a $54 per month subscription with Adobe just to do some basic DIY graphics work. Spending $50 on a somewhat more basic application is easier for small business owners. So if we start getting .afdesign files in email from customers I want to be able to open those files properly. Exporting art to other applications doesn't always go so well. It usually takes a good bit of experience with graphics software to navigate those hurdles. It's difficult to expect clients to do that with their DIY art files.
 

twmiller24

New Member
The first reason was the apps were priced dirt cheap when I bought them (50% off COVID-19 sale), so it seemed like no harm to give the application a try on both platforms. Plus the iPad version gives me another drawing on screen app to go with Vectornator and Illustrator.
Yep ... $25 out the door for a fully-featured graphics program is dirt cheap, for sure, especially when the license is for multiple computers in the same household, and that price includes updates. I'm sure if it catches on that price will go up.
 

ProColorGraphics

New Member
It appears the biggest improvements in Affinity Designer 1.9 are the addition of a contour tool, the ability to use linked images, auto-selecting objects according to certain similar attributes and saving various workspace setups (studio presets).

Most of these features have been in applications like CorelDRAW since the 1990's. However, Affinity Designer has some unique takes on features like the contour tool (similar to Offset Path in Illustrator). IMHO, Astute Graphics' Stylism plug-in for Illustrator just blows away everything else in terms of complex outlining effects. However this contour tool in Affinity Designer offers some "live" lava-like behaviors with compounded objects.

Serif has a good description and some demonstration videos of the features on this page:
https://affinityspotlight.com/artic...Designer_1.9.932_Windows&utm_campaign=Welcome



CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator are still my main go-to tools. I'm waiting to see what Corel comes up with for version 2021. Currently I have CDR 2020 and CDR 2018 both installed on my work desktop PC due to some annoying font table bugs in CDR 2020 that never got fixed.

I bought copies of Affinity Designer for my PC and iPad Pro for a couple reasons.

The first reason was the apps were priced dirt cheap when I bought them (50% off COVID-19 sale), so it seemed like no harm to give the application a try on both platforms. Plus the iPad version gives me another drawing on screen app to go with Vectornator and Illustrator.

The second reason is just having the app on hand in case the popularity of Affinity Designer really grows. We get a decent amount of client-provided artwork, a good bit of which comes from small businesses. It's a really big ask to expect someone not doing graphic design work full time to blow $500 on a pro-level vector drawing application like CorelDRAW or get on a $54 per month subscription with Adobe just to do some basic DIY graphics work. Spending $50 on a somewhat more basic application is easier for small business owners. So if we start getting .afdesign files in email from customers I want to be able to open those files properly. Exporting art to other applications doesn't always go so well. It usually takes a good bit of experience with graphics software to navigate those hurdles. It's difficult to expect clients to do that with their DIY art files.
I agree about the Astute plugins. They are one of the main things keeping me using illustrator. I am hoping Affinity will allow for 3rd party plugins soon. I have asked Astute Graphics about other programs and they said it was up to them to allow it.

I do like the Affinity apps and have all 3. It's just hard to remember, or take the time, to use them more when you have become so proficient in the program you use all of the time.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I'm sure if it catches on that price will go up.

I'm more worried about if the subscription model will take hold. The "You will own nothing and be happy about it" is getting quite pervasive in a lot, and I mean a lot, of areas. Especially in tech.

I have asked Astute Graphics about other programs and they said it was up to them to allow it.

One thing that I like about the programs that I use, is that even I can create the plugins that I need that are specific to me (or modify the ones that others have written to tailor to my needs). So I'm not beholding to others that create these or more importantly maintain them. Now there are cons to these programs and some of them are deal breaking cons, so bare that in mind as well.

Corel does allow for that more then most (or at least did, it may just be macros now, but they used to allow for tools written by users even written in C++). May not be the case anymore, but at one time it was.

I do like the Affinity apps and have all 3. It's just hard to remember, or take the time, to use them more when you have become so proficient in the program you use all of the time.

Think of it this way, what happens if something where to happen that all of a sudden you didn't have the ability to use the software that you are used to? In today's world, things change at a moment's notice. Always be prepared for that.

In this instance, I would suggest doing your work stuff in what you are used to know and all your personal projects in the new programs.

It ain't easy (trust me, I know this from first hand experience), but the less you are beholding to any one vendor (much like being beholding to a handful of whale clients) for any of your tools, the better off you are.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
ProColorGraphics said:
I agree about the Astute plugins. They are one of the main things keeping me using illustrator. I am hoping Affinity will allow for 3rd party plugins soon. I have asked Astute Graphics about other programs and they said it was up to them to allow it.

Up to who to allow it? Adobe? The Astute Graphics plugins are very much hard wired with Illustrator DNA for how deep they dive into Illustrator functions. I think it would be more complicated porting those plugins to a rival drawing application than it is to create something like a vinyl plotter output plug-in. I don't know if Affinity Designer even has an extensible architecture to allow for third party plug-ins.

I experiment a bit with Affinity Designer from time to time. But there are too many big and little things missing in terms of features, keyboard shortcuts and whatnot for me to rely on that program for much of my work. I'm really spoiled by the keyboard shortcuts in Illustrator for anchor point editing, zooming in/out and hand-panning the view. I used to do the vast majority of my vector-based work in CorelDRAW, but more and more of it is being done in Illustrator as Adobe continues to improve the application (and do so on a frequent basis). The huge suite of Astute Graphics plugins for Illustrator just elevates it on a whole other level. Affinity Designer will have to go through a few more generational level improvements to get onto the same level as Illustrator.

Meanwhile I'm growing more and more concerned about the future of CorelDRAW. I haven't heard any word at all of what to expect with the upcoming CDR 2021 release, presumably in March. I already got billed $99 for my "upgrade protection" (cough: subscription) in January. In years past there would be a good amount of pre-release buzz over a new release of graphics software. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, at least not with Corel. I worry that the company is possibly loaded down in debt and/or operating with as little development staff as possible as a consequence of the acquisition last year by KKR.

While I'm shifting more actual work over to Illustrator I'm getting more proficient in other rival applications, such as Affinity Designer (iPad and PC), Inkscape, Autodesk Graphic (iPad), Vectornator (iPad). As much as so many people hate on Adobe the fact remains they're doing pretty well. The only area where I see any vulnerability for Adobe is in the video editing segment where Blackmagic Design is really turning up the heat.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Based on one of the moderator's posts (although it's an old one), doesn't look good for addons with Afinity.

While I'm shifting more actual work over to Illustrator I'm getting more proficient in other rival applications, such as Affinity Designer (iPad and PC), Inkscape, Autodesk Graphic (iPad), Vectornator (iPad). As much as so many people hate on Adobe the fact remains they're doing pretty well. The only area where I see any vulnerability for Adobe is in the video editing segment where Blackmagic Design is really turning up the heat.

The thing is, I don't think Adobe gets the bulk of it's revenue from CC as well. They offer a subscription for businesses (not directly CC related) that is where it appears to get the bulk of it's money nowadays.

Premier has really being lambasted it seems recently.

I have used DaVinci as it does support Linux (one of the benefits of using a framework, in this case my fav Qt, able to use one code base to support all platforms) and it even handles audio better in the program, really surprising well.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
The thing is, I don't think Adobe gets the bulk of it's revenue from CC as well. They offer a subscription for businesses (not directly CC related) that is where it appears to get the bulk of it's money nowadays.

Adobe's move to selling its software exclusively via Creative Cloud made enough of a difference in its bottom line that its stock price has soared in the following years.

Adobe's first Creative Cloud-only versions of applications were released on June 17, 2013. Their stock price at that time was about $43 per share. Adobe's stock had hovered in the $35-$45 range since the end of the 1990's. Since June of 2013 Adobe's stock has gone from $43 per share to nearly $492 today. The stock's all time high was $533 on 9/2/20. It has hovered between $440-$500 since then. I'm sure the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic and economic downturn has had some effect on Adobe's financials.

I don't know the breakdown between individual CC licenses versus Creative Cloud for Teams. Perhaps it might be an item listed in one of their quarterly or annual reports. We have 3 individual CC licenses at my workplace. I don't see the cost advantage for switching those to teams-based licenses. I also wonder how much Adobe makes from the Adobe Stock business. I personally haven't bought much from Adobe Stock. Usually iStock tends to be my first choice for stock photos and graphics.

WildWestDesigns said:
Premier has really being lambasted it seems recently.

I don't understand all the problems surrounding Premiere. Adobe has issued lots of updates to fix known bugs. But frequent updates are kind of the norm. Heck, I saw two minor updates for Illustrator just this week. I suspect the issues with Premiere are more complicated and likely involve a lot more than the software itself.

I'm wondering if Blackmagic Design is running into any serious issues with its Da Vinci Resolve suite of applications (or "pages" as they say). Like Premiere, it is being run on a pretty wide variety of hardware. The latest edition of Da Vinci Resolve (v17) is now available and can be downloaded for free. It costs a little money to turn on all the bells and whistles in the software. I really think Blackmagic Design is offering the software as a loss leader in order to sell its professional level video production hardware. Now that stuff is not so cheap to buy.
 
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WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Adobe's move to selling its software exclusively via Creative Cloud made enough of a difference in its bottom line that its stock price has soared in the following years.

Well, yea, they have cultivated this idea (and now it's probably true by definition) that they are the de facto standard. So depending on what one's needs are, may have to stick with it.

The problem with subscription is that things tend to be more about iteration then innovation. The biggest innovation that I have seen (some in terms of AI, but it'll be a long time before AI can totally replace the artist in what they are trying to do, as such AI doesn't appeal to me, but if it's your thing that's fine) has been with their acquisitions of other software. And we are talking about programs that are old.

Although, I'm mainly thinking of their marketing platform, Adobe Experience. Information (which this does deal with) is the major currency of today's times. I think they do better with that, then actually CC. Not to say that they don't make huge money with CC, but relatively speaking. Kinda like Windows and MS. MS makes a whole lot more with Azure (which actually runs more Linux instances on it) then they do with Windows.




I don't understand all the problems surrounding Premiere. Adobe has issued lots of updates to fix known bugs. But frequent updates are kind of the norm. Heck, I saw two minor updates for Illustrator just this week. I suspect the issues with Premiere are more complicated and likely involve a lot more than the software itself.

Most of the complaints that I have seen have been relative to the program crashing. Some of that though has been due to large files and that can present a lot of problems for any program with dealing with large files.

But again, these are old applications that have suffered from feature creep for a lot of years, that takes it's toll. One of the advantages of Affinity is that they have a relatively lean code base and one that is geared to more modern hardware. I would imagine that things have really been tacked on/patched with the Adobe (and Corel) products.

As to other then just software, also keep in mind, Windows goes thru 2 major updates a year and MS doesn't exactly have the best track record with these updates even on their own hardware stability wise. In my experience, Arch has better stability then Win 10 after all the issues that I'm constantly fixing on dad's computer.


I'm wondering if Blackmagic Design is running into any serious issues with its Da Vinci Resolve suite of applications (or "pages" as they say). Like Premiere, it is being run on a pretty wide variety of hardware.

And not to mention on an extra OS compared to Premier (Linux is Linux, Linux is the kernel, all those different distros are different environments with different programs on it, that's it, doesn't even matter what package manager "your" particular flavor has, which is the biggest "con" that people claim, they just don't know what a DEB or RPM file actually is, so don't think there is a difference between Fedora versus Ubuntu versus Arch versus Suse etc).

The latest edition of Da Vinci Resolve (v17) is now available and can be downloaded for free. It costs a little money to turn on all the bells and whistles in the software. I really think Blackmagic Design is offering the software as a loss leader in order to sell its professional level video production hardware. Now that stuff is not so cheap to buy.

It could be a loss leader, but if that was the case, it would still be free. $300 (almost) is still a nice little chunk of change. Now, their hardware is definitely out of sight, but that's the way things tend to go with commercial grade hardware. It's some nice stuff. I'm tempted on the smaller ones, I've been doing more with animation (both 2D and 3D) and that would help, especially with their audio abilities built in. Using Ardour right now (which if not on Linux, the pre-compiled binaries cost, negligible though).
 

ProColorGraphics

New Member
Up to who to allow it? Adobe? The Astute Graphics plugins are very much hard wired with Illustrator DNA for how deep they dive into Illustrator functions. I think it would be more complicated porting those plugins to a rival drawing application than it is to create something like a vinyl plotter output plug-in. I don't know if Affinity Designer even has an extensible architecture to allow for third party plug-ins.

I experiment a bit with Affinity Designer from time to time. But there are too many big and little things missing in terms of features, keyboard shortcuts and whatnot for me to rely on that program for much of my work. I'm really spoiled by the keyboard shortcuts in Illustrator for anchor point editing, zooming in/out and hand-panning the view. I used to do the vast majority of my vector-based work in CorelDRAW, but more and more of it is being done in Illustrator as Adobe continues to improve the application (and do so on a frequent basis). The huge suite of Astute Graphics plugins for Illustrator just elevates it on a whole other level. Affinity Designer will have to go through a few more generational level improvements to get onto the same level as Illustrator.

Meanwhile I'm growing more and more concerned about the future of CorelDRAW. I haven't heard any word at all of what to expect with the upcoming CDR 2021 release, presumably in March. I already got billed $99 for my "upgrade protection" (cough: subscription) in January. In years past there would be a good amount of pre-release buzz over a new release of graphics software. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, at least not with Corel. I worry that the company is possibly loaded down in debt and/or operating with as little development staff as possible as a consequence of the acquisition last year by KKR.

While I'm shifting more actual work over to Illustrator I'm getting more proficient in other rival applications, such as Affinity Designer (iPad and PC), Inkscape, Autodesk Graphic (iPad), Vectornator (iPad). As much as so many people hate on Adobe the fact remains they're doing pretty well. The only area where I see any vulnerability for Adobe is in the video editing segment where Blackmagic Design is really turning up the heat.
When I asked Astute Graphics about it, they said they were open to having their plugins for Affinity. But it was up to Affinity to allow it.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
When I asked Astute Graphics about it, they said they were open to having their plugins for Affinity. But it was up to Affinity to allow it.

In the commercial world, it would have to be allowed by the vendor in some way. Either making available, via public documentation, the API to target for the plugin or thru licensing.

I highly doubt that it would be exactly the same or an exact 1:1 port. The programs are different, with different coding, so I wouldn't expect an exact port, certainly not at first. But something would definitely be better then nothing.

In the 8th post of this thread, I linked to a forum post asking if Affinity was planning that for designer. A moderator said that they weren't planning on it (allowing 3rd party plugins), but that was back in 2016, but no post in that thread disputed that assessment later on either.

I think it's a mistake for any program not to allow plugins. Doesn't matter if licensing is involved or not, but programs like Designer, DRAW, Illustrator are general purpose programs, designed to appeal to a broad range of professionals within the creative field. Now they may skew towards one type (or a couple of types) over another, but still general purpose. Plugins allow it to be more niche and have true advantages for a particular group. More open the API, the more groups can take advantage of that (one poster in that thread suggested a python API, which may make it closer to Inkscape and if that can target your individual programmers as well). That type of appeal reaches a broader audience.

But the give and take from a financial perspective is there as well. While an open API appeals to more people to buy the program, definitely doesn't have the same type of financial gain directly like a licensed out API.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
The problem with subscription is that things tend to be more about iteration then innovation.

I don't really agree. That statement implies that full version releases in non-subscription software will always have major improvements. I've seen plenty of non-subscription software offer pretty under-whelming full version updates. CorelDRAW has even suffered in its past few versions, offering at best only incremental improvements. Nothing mind-blowing major. As bad as Corel appears to be struggling (at least in my view) I think they need to go back to a 2 year release cycle and get rid of the year numbers in the CorelDRAW name.

And then when it comes to Adobe Illustrator there is really no other vector drawing program on the market that has had more improvements as well as frequent attention paid to bug fixes issued in the past few years. Inkscape, Vectornator and Affinity Designer haven't seen as many updates. It's no contest at all when drawing a comparison between CorelDRAW and Illustrator. AI CC 2020 had three point release updates which all offered pretty significant changes. They also pushed out a lot of minor maintenance updates between those point releases. The 2020 release of CorelDRAW barely got touched at all. Meanwhile the current version of Illustrator already had its first point release update and the ".2" release is coming fairly soon.

I think Adobe's ability to release major and minor updates to Illustrator more frequently is one advantage of the subscription model. But I also think they're able to throw more resources at Illustrator because they have a lot of resources to spare. I doubt if the development team for CorelDRAW is as big (or well funded).

WildWestDesigns said:
Most of the complaints that I have seen have been relative to the program crashing. Some of that though has been due to large files and that can present a lot of problems for any program with dealing with large files.

Some of the crashes in Premiere Pro have definitely been due to bugs. But plenty of other crashes are likely due to users trying to do more than their system hardware will allow. With the Dynamic Link approach it's common for people to not only have a big project open in Premiere, but they'll likely have After Effects and Audition open and maybe even Photoshop and Illustrator for that matter.
 
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WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I don't really agree. That statement implies that full version releases in non-subscription software will always have major improvements.

Nope. What that statement implies is that the need to always lure people to the next version is greater (not that it's a sure thing, but the need to lure is greater) when there is no sure thing of money coming in. About the only advantage that they would have to for sure money is that if people wait too long, a version that they have won't work on the latest hardware and depending on how long they waited may not have upgrade pricing (something that they don't have at all with subscription pricing, except the discount of getting on a yearly contract versus a monthly one or if you play some game of pretending to leave when the contract expires etc).

What lure does Adobe have to get people on the newer version? Not much of anything, but mainly providing a stable experience. Given that Adobe is really rolling release software, that is very much a need.

For instance, I want from CS5 to CS6 as there was no need (there were improvements in CS5.5, but not enough for me to change and I found it kinda petty to charge a point release as a regular full release, but that's me) for me to get 5.5. With the subscription model, even if you were to skip 5.5 and stay on CS5 until 6 came out, I would still be paying that money regardless if you used that version. That is what my statement was talking about. Your always paying regardless if you skip a version or not (that's about the only way to have a stable experience is to stay on that older version and be a generation behind. If always on the latest and greatest, it's rolling release.

As far as to the advantages of those features that Adobe may haven put in, it depends on if those features matter to you. A lot of people on here were bellyaching for a larger canvas in Ai, that means squat to me, but to some that was really important. I'm not going to purchase a new version for that feature, while I'm sure others would see that as an advantage.

Now, the converse of that is true. They can (and they have) taken away features as well. When they mandated the x-1 schedule, they had also remove a critical function from Animate that some users needed and that broke some files. Things like that do happen. If anyone uses a function within Adobe software that is a licensed blob of code from a 3rd party, always make sure the files don't get broken if that functionality is suddenly removed.

I think even your fav function of the fonts has gone through a change or two. May or may not have affected you, depends on what foundry was removed and/or added, but it could eventually affect you if it hasn't already. Nevermind the need of a perpetual internet connection for those fonts to work if they are still "live".

It's a whole lotta less control for the user. Those convenience features come at a price and that is a lack of control (in some cases of ownership, although one really has never owned software if you never got the source code along with your purchase, but control (or lack of it) is the biggest difference).

I personally don't like that, especially if it's tools that I use to make a living. But that's me and how I value things, your threshold could be different and that's fine. To each their own.

Having said that, I don't want Adobe or Corel killers (of course, being killed by their own hand is quite possible) as we could be in the same situation later on with whatever vendor killed them off. More in the market place, the better.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
Nope. What that statement implies is that the need to always lure people to the next version is greater (not that it's a sure thing, but the need to lure is greater) when there is no sure thing of money coming in.

You are reaching big time with a few different factors. First you appear to be assuming Adobe is totally maxed out on its number of subscribers and cannot attract any more users. And this notion of luring people to the next full version? That's a dog currently not hunting. What the hell is Corel or any non-subscriber software vendor doing to "lure" customers to the next version? As I said before I've already paid my $99 "upgrade protection" fee but haven't heard the first word of what to expect with CorelDRAW 2021. Meanwhile there is actually a process toward progress going on with Adobe. The lights are on in Adobe's house. Can't say the same at Corel.

The only way Adobe can sit back and coast is if they don't want to grow their user base, or even maintain their existing subscriber numbers. From what I've seen from both Adobe and Corel, Adobe is the one who is being far more responsive to user feedback. Adobe is issuing way more bug fixes and doing so faster. They also appear to be far more receptive to user input on feature requests. I feel like I can personally take credit for the font height options that were introduced in the AI 24.3 update. I provided a lot of illustrated examples in the Illustrator feature request sub-forum and the developers listened to my feedback. That addition and the large canvas improvements in the 24.2 update pretty much took away any remaining advantages CorelDRAW had over Illustrator.

WildWestDesigns said:
As far as to the advantages of those features that Adobe may haven put in, it depends on if those features matter to you. A lot of people on here were bellyaching for a larger canvas in Ai, that means squat to me, but to some that was really important. I'm not going to purchase a new version for that feature, while I'm sure others would see that as an advantage.

Large canvas means squat to you? I think I asked this before, but what are you doing spending time on a sign making forum if large canvas functions don't mean anything to you? The large canvas feature in Illustrator was long overdue. I'm glad they pushed it out when they did rather than hold it back for months on end so it could be rolled out in a "full version" release.

But to get to another big advantage with the CC subscription setup: the push updates does way way more to keep users far more current on running the latest builds. The development team doesn't have to waste a bunch of time working on old, defunct versions of software for people who flatly refuse to upgrade. They can put more work in making the current, latest build working better. Don't want to upgrade? Unplug your PC from the Internet permanently. But don't drag everyone else down with that Luddite garbage. Adobe's software is not for casual hobbyist kind of stuff. It is geared primarily for paid, professional use. A hobbyist can go play with Inkscape or some other free or very affordable program. It's not a problem for my company to pay for 3 CC licenses. We pay a LOT more money for plenty of other things, including certain kinds of software. For example professional level RIP software for large format printers is not cheap at all.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
You are reaching big time with a few different factors. First you appear to be assuming Adobe is totally maxed out on its number of subscribers and cannot attract any more users.

Not at all. Adobe has one big advantage and that is by pushing their software in the education sector, people going through high education are used to that software and have the idea implanted into them that they have to have this software.


What the hell is Corel or any non-subscriber software vendor doing to "lure" customers to the next version? As I said before I've already paid my $99 "upgrade protection" fee but haven't heard the first word of what to expect with CorelDRAW 2021. Meanwhile there is actually a process toward progress going on with Adobe. The lights are on in Adobe's house. Can't say the same at Corel.

I said that the desire should be greater. I didn't say that the company was actually doing that. There is a huge difference. Corel has it's own problems as you mentioned in other posts.


Ironically, I would say that what some of the others have done is one key difference that Adobe had done (Corel used that very thing in the earlier years of the switch to get new customers). They kept a non subscription license option. That was the single factor that took me away from Adobe after having worked with the software since the summer of '94. Add into how MS was handling Windows, I made another switch. In fact, the OP started experimenting with Affinity software based on not wanting to pay the monthly license.

Now, having said that, I'm able to eat crow and move back if that becomes a need. I won't like it, at all (far more freedom as an end user and what I can do on the platform setup that I have now compared to what I had before), but I know enough to make that decision if I need to.

Adobe is the one who is being far more responsive to user feedback. Adobe is issuing way more bug fixes and doing so faster.

This is actually apart of that iterative nature. To where you get more bug fixes etc, but not the truly wow new features like we used to get. I'm talking "layers" level of wow.


Large canvas means squat to you? I think I asked this before, but what are you doing spending time on a sign making forum if large canvas functions don't mean anything to you?

I can work in scale, I've been doing it for years. It doesn't bother me, I have a system down for that. Certainly not a feature that would compel me to buy a perpetual license if Adobe still had that available.

As to why I'm on a sign forum:

1. I offer services to sign shops, either partial or the entire process (depending on if they have the machines or not)
2. I also do create and offer smaller signage, along the lines of more "novelty", but not quite. For some sure, but not all.
3. While the main stay of what I do may not be signage, there is very little difference in creatives, so it's nice to socialize in some way with other creatives.
4. I firmly believe in continuing to learn. I educate all creative processes and enjoy learning about them. I believe that the mind, like any other muscle, needs to be continually worked.


The large canvas feature in Illustrator was long overdue.

So they just now implemented a long overdue needed feature when they are able to slow down and be more iterative and fix bugs. How long have people been crying out for that feature?

the push updates does way way more to keep users far more current on running the latest builds.

This is a pro and a con. You are essentially on a rolling release, this isn't good for a production platform. For an end user, maybe, but not a production computer. How many update issues has their been with Windows and their updates? Some haven't had any, but some have them all the time. And when Windows has an issue, that affects the programs as well and it's because of that, people have to keep upgrade their software. At that point, I would prefer to have browser based software (and with WASM, it's damn near close to native speed, why we are able to have AutoCAD in the browser). At least with it being in the browser, there is another level inbetween it and what is happening on the hardware level that Windows updates won't affect it to the same degree. You may not have had that much of an issue with Win 10 updates, but there are plenty that have.


The development team doesn't have to waste a bunch of time working on old, defunct versions of software for people who flatly refuse to upgrade.

There is a difference between this and a more stable platform.

Don't want to upgrade? Unplug your PC from the Internet permanently. But don't drag everyone else down with that Luddite garbage.

That actually doesn't work all that well if that software still requires server connections.

I'm not advocating luddite level here. My main office OS doesn't get a stable release until April of this year (it's 21.04), the other computers run the LTS, but are rolling release for KDE/Qt applications, meaning Qt apps (Krita for instance) get updated as soon as a new one comes up (I do that manually on my own). I run alpha builds of Blender in production, so I'm not afraid to stay current, but even though I tend to run Alpha and Beta builds of software (I ran Fedora in production and that OS goes EOL every 13 months), I still wouldn't suggest it for a production machine, unless someone is willing to fix things on their own. Those are the ones that should be using rolling releases, those that are able to fix things on their own. Do an internet search etc. Not those where time is money.


Adobe's software is not for casual hobbyist kind of stuff. It is geared primarily for paid, professional use. A hobbyist can go play with Inkscape or some other free or very affordable program. It's not a problem for my company to pay for 3 CC licenses. We pay a LOT more money for plenty of other things, including certain kinds of software. For example professional level RIP software for large format printers is not cheap at all.

You are assuming some things here. You are equating my not liking the new licensing scheme as not being able to pay it, not running a legitimate business because of that.

Back in the day, when Adobe released a new version, I would buy it out right (in terms of buying a perpetual license, one never truly owns Adobe software), even if I qualified for the upgrade pricing. Why did I do that? Because I didn't want to have to futz with installing the old version and then install the upgrade if I swapped out computers, it was worth the full price to me to not have to deal with that.

The software that runs my machines and my digitizing business, $15k. I have no problem shelling that out, but I will drop them if they go subscription (I have other options, one of which offers more then it's paid for equivalent (not as much as the $15k software, but I don't need everything in that particular package either and what extra I needed that most don't need, I actually contributed to that part of the code base). I was even a beta tester for them once (do you really think that they would have hobbyists as beta testers or "real" businesses?). Price is not the biggest reason.

If you believe that this last section of yours is the biggest reason why people do things like this, swapping to other software, especially if it's cheaper and thus without merit in the commercial setting, your way off base when it comes to my main point and why I advocate switching. For some, sure that may be true, but not in my case.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
Adobe has one big advantage and that is by pushing their software in the education sector, people going through high education are used to that software and have the idea implanted into them that they have to have this software.

Adobe is far from the only vendor offering lower pricing to educators for its software. Adobe isn't doing any more to push their software to educators than anyone else. They're certainly not doing any kind of arm twisting. We have a local vo-tech and it offers a graphics and photography course load. I'm on the advisory board of that department and help steer decision making on what hardware and software is purchased for student use. Adobe's software figures big in that picture. The same is true for many other schools offering graphics courses, be it a top flight art school down to a little vo-tech or even a high school in a well funded school district.

This preference for Adobe's software has nothing to do with any kind of tunnel vision bias. It has everything to do with the fact Adobe's software is used more in professional creative sectors than creative software from anyone else. More employers expect to see job applicants be proficient in Adobe's software than software from Adobe's rivals, such as Corel. That has been the situation for about 30 years and there is little chance that will change anytime soon.

WildWestDesigns said:
This is actually apart of that iterative nature. To where you get more bug fixes etc, but not the truly wow new features like we used to get. I'm talking "layers" level of wow.

The features Adobe added to Illustrator 24 in the .1, .2 and .3 updates add up to a heck of a lot more than anything I've seen in a whole version update of CorelDRAW in many years. Adobe also added an iPad version of Illustrator too. The more recent .1 update of Illustrator was significant too. I like it that Adobe isn't holding back for an entire year or more on new features when they're ready to be implemented.

The Illustrator development team has a very good beta program. They have an active forum where people can comment about bugs in the beta build or post feature requests and even up-vote those ideas. They invite users to take part in roadmap discussions. I think they have a pretty healthy system in place. It's easy for any CC subscriber to take part in betas for just about any of their programs. In the left column of the Creative Cloud app they have a categories list of software and now include "beta apps" as an item.

WildWestDesigns said:
I can work in scale, I've been doing it for years. It doesn't bother me, I have a system down for that. Certainly not a feature that would compel me to buy a perpetual license if Adobe still had that available.

You're workflow is not the same as my workflow. Traditional sign design applications have always been able to allow design at full size. They output work to vinyl cutters, routing tables and large format printers at full size. When multiple co-workers are opening or importing art files for production it's far better for the original art work to already be set at full size. There is less chance of error than if the artwork is at sized at a reduced scale. If I have a layout containing something gigantic like a full building elevation and have that dropped down to 50%, 25% or 10% of actual size I'll include bold alerts in the file noting the scale to keep someone from grabbing the artwork and printing or cutting it as is.

WildWestDesigns said:
You are essentially on a rolling release, this isn't good for a production platform. For an end user, maybe, but not a production computer. How many update issues has their been with Windows and their updates? Some haven't had any, but some have them all the time.

Illustrator works just fine in professional use on production computers. Most problems get worked out in the beta builds. I would dare to say they have a much larger number of beta testers than any other vector drawing program. Adobe still pushes out plenty of maintenance updates to the live production release of Illustrator. Some of that does indeed have to do with changes Microsoft and Apple make to their operating systems. At least Adobe is rolling out those updates quickly rather than dragging their feet for months on end like some of their rivals.

WildWestDesigns said:
So they just now implemented a long overdue needed feature when they are able to slow down and be more iterative and fix bugs.

I think Adobe's developers can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I don't know how difficult it was for them to implement the large canvas feature into Illustrator. But the feature has been requested for years. I think one reason why it took so long to implement is Adobe was mainly focused on producing graphics for the printed page from its beginning. Graphics for web and video didn't require large scale art boards either. They finally woke up and realized a lot of people were using Illustrator for a lot of large scale purposes (signs, vehicle wraps, billboards, etc).

WildWestDesigns said:
You are assuming some things here. You are equating my not liking the new licensing scheme as not being able to pay it, not running a legitimate business because of that.

Money is always a factor, regardless of whether the customer can afford it or not. Users will skip version releases of an application they use to in order to save a buck. I've done it. Adobe took away that option and lots of people didn't like that. But Adobe had the leverage to do so since several of its applications are industry leading in those categories. Corel has pretty much gone the subscription only route too, probably thinking they can get the same level of success. But they're not offering the same kind of value. I think CorelDRAW is worth the $99 per year I'm currently paying via "upgrade protection." But if I had to pay the $249 per year they're currently asking for a straight subscription I'd quit upgrading and work away from using that application at all. There are some things I still like in CorelDRAW. But just about anything I can do CorelDRAW can be done in Illustrator. That wasn't always the case previously.

WildWestDesigns said:
If you believe that this last section of yours is the biggest reason why people do things like this, swapping to other software, especially if it's cheaper and thus without merit in the commercial setting, your way off base when it comes to my main point and why I advocate switching. For some, sure that may be true, but not in my case.

What other advantage is there in ditching Adobe's software other than saving money? The only other reason to switch if a rival application can do the job better and improve productivity. Very few of Adobe's rivals are releasing applications that match what Adobe is offering. Currently that only appears to be the case in the audio-video production space. In the vector graphics space CorelDRAW is Illustrator's main rival and Corel has missed a step. I've used plenty of other drawing programs including Affinity Designer lately. Currently there is nothing else out there that is going to make me more productive than I am with Illustrator, or even CorelDRAW for that matter. I've test driven the rival applications and see no reason to switch.

Compound that issue with customer provided artwork. Most of the corporate artwork we receive is generated in Adobe's applications. Illustrator files do not import well into other rival vector graphics programs without a lot of careful tweaks. It's just a LOT easier, faster and more productive to let Illustrator open a customer provided Illustrator file.
 
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WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Adobe is far from the only vendor offering lower pricing to educators for its software. Adobe isn't doing any more to push their software to educators than anyone else. They're certainly not doing any kind of arm twisting. We have a local vo-tech and it offers a graphics and photography course load. I'm on the advisory board of that department and help steer decision making on what hardware and software is purchased for student use. Adobe's software figures big in that picture. The same is true for many other schools offering graphics courses, be it a top flight art school down to a little vo-tech or even a high school in a well funded school district.

In my high school it was Apple and it was Adobe and that was it and that was hammered into us. Ironically, there was a user on here (haven't seen for awhile) that had a siggy that said "A mind is like a parachute, they only work when they are both open" and he was a firm believer that for a shop to be legit, they had to have Adobe running on a Mac.

This preference for Adobe's software has nothing to do with any kind of tunnel vision bias. It has everything to do with the fact Adobe's software is used more in professional creative sectors than creative software from anyone else. More employers expect to see job applicants be proficient in Adobe's software than software from Adobe's rivals, such as Corel. That has been the situation for about 30 years and there is little chance that will change anytime soon.

There is some there and there is also the ideology that if something worked twenty years ago, it should still work now.


The features Adobe added to Illustrator 24 in the .1, .2 and .3 updates add up to a heck of a lot more than anything I've seen in a whole version update of CorelDRAW in many years. Adobe also added an iPad version of Illustrator too. The more recent .1 update of Illustrator was significant too. I like it that Adobe isn't holding back for an entire year or more on new features when they're ready to be implemented.

I think we can both agree that Corel is going down hill.

It's easy for any CC subscriber to take part in betas for just about any of their programs. In the left column of the Creative Cloud app they have a categories list of software and now include "beta apps" as an item.

So like MS' Insiders program. For the program that I was referencing earlier, it was by invite only.


You're workflow is not the same as my workflow.

And your workflow may not be the same as the next sign shop's workflow. As I have stated in our omnibus rounds of this dialog, it does depend on the individual situation.


Traditional sign design applications have always been able to allow design at full size.

Ai is still a general purpose program, I would expect something different in the nitch programs of any business.



If I have a layout containing something gigantic like a full building elevation and have that dropped down to 50%, 25% or 10% of actual size I'll include bold alerts in the file noting the scale to keep someone from grabbing the artwork and printing or cutting it as is.

I tend to put in a notes layer about scaling (when applicable) and about what fonts were used.

Very rarely do my production source files leave my position though. More for my failing memory.




Money is always a factor, regardless of whether the customer can afford it or not.

There is a difference between a factor versus the factor. Just like when looking at programs and what features are needed. First make sure to get the one that has the feature set that one needs and then make sure that it fits the budget needs. I look at features, control, then price. Not everyone has that same mindset though.



Users will skip version releases of an application they use to in order to save a buck. I've done it.

In some instances yes. But not all. Remember, I use to buy every release (save 5.5, it ticked me off pricing of a point release), I even did so paying full price because I didn't want to have to deal with that installing old version, then each upgrade version when I went to a new computer.

Users will also skip and sometimes stop upgrading period, if a functionality is deprecated/removed from the next release that they want/need. However, considering Adobe forces users to upgrade and not have older then x-1, that functionality will be lost to those at some point, sooner rather then later. Again, they may or may not affect you. Eventually I would say that it will at some point for something.


What other advantage is there in ditching Adobe's software other than saving money? The only other reason to switch if a rival application can do the job better and improve productivity.

The big one for me.....CONTROL.

I don't have a problem with creating my own tools/addons to programs that allow for it and to me, I can create tools that improve usability/productivity without having to rely on someone else. Now, if you can't/don't want to or whatever, that's fine, but there are other reasons to switch then just saving money.

Again, I'm not in it for a free ride, I expect to pay. Hell, I have plugins for Blender that cost me money (RetopoFlow being my favorite), so no, I don't have a problem with paying money for things that deliver on what is important to me. Which is going to be different for you and for the next person.


Currently there is nothing else out there that is going to make me more productive than I am with Illustrator, or even CorelDRAW for that matter. I've test driven the rival applications and see no reason to switch.

That's the key take away right there. Make YOU more productive, not always going to be the same from one person to the next.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
In my high school it was Apple and it was Adobe and that was it and that was hammered into us.

30 years ago the Mac platform was vastly superior to Windows for graphic design purposes. Too many professional level applications were Mac-only releases. Adobe was one of the first credible vendors out of the gate. If you wanted to do professional level digital print design and advertising work back in the late 1980's and into the early 1990's it took a Mac to get the job done. And often that Mac would be loaded with Adobe software.

The only reason why the sign industry has been historically dominated by the Windows platform goes back to the first "CAS" applications, their relation to CAD software (which was very PC oriented) and the first vinyl cutters and routing tables, most of which depended on MS-DOS and then Windows in order to run. CorelDRAW benefitted because it was the only general purpose vector-drawing application worth a hoot available for Windows. Aldus started taking the Windows platform more seriously when Windows 3.1 was released. When Windows 95 and 98 came out Macromedia and then Adobe started releasing Windows versions of their applications that had feature parity with their MacOS counterparts.

WildWestDesigns said:
There is some there and there is also the ideology that if something worked twenty years ago, it should still work now.

I can open a 30 year old Photoshop or Illustrator file in the current versions of those applications with hardly any problem. The same thing isn't possible with CorelDRAW. For some stupid reason Corel cut off all support for CDR files made prior to version 6. As for 20 year old applications the only way that stuff can run is either on a really old computer or in a virtual machine running a really old OS.

WildWestDesigns said:
And your workflow may not be the same as the next sign shop's workflow. As I have stated in our omnibus rounds of this dialog, it does depend on the individual situation.

Most sign designers design their stuff at full size. I think it's safe to make that claim. I've met lots of different sign designers over my 25+ years doing this kind of work. Most of them have worked at full size. I have 3 co-workers doing design work. They all do their primary designs at full size. The only time anything is shrunk down to a small scale is when client sketches are being made. And those are saved as separate files.

WildWestDesigns said:
Users will also skip and sometimes stop upgrading period, if a functionality is deprecated/removed from the next release that they want/need. However, considering Adobe forces users to upgrade and not have older then x-1, that functionality will be lost to those at some point, sooner rather then later.

What functions has Adobe removed from Illustrator or their other applications?

Going back 20+ years I can think of only two examples. Adobe removed support of Type 1 Multiple Master fonts a long time ago, but that's only because entire computing industry abandoned that font format. And there's the legal tangle with Dolby, which forced Adobe to remove Dolby Digital encoding from Premiere and Audition. But that's more an issue with Dolby. There's no free lunch with DD 5.1 encoding regardless of video or audio editing application anyone uses.

WildWestDesigns said:
The big one for me.....CONTROL.

That's an ILLUSION. Unless you're using software you developed yourself you're always going to be at the mercy of decisions made by other companies or if those companies are put out of business. It makes no difference if the software is sold via subscription or not. It doesn't even make a difference if it's "open source" or not. I've seen plenty of non-subscription software get broken via OS updates, forcing customers to upgrade. Companies buy other companies and kill applications (like Freehand).

WildWestDesigns said:
I don't have a problem with creating my own tools/addons to programs that allow for it and to me, I can create tools that improve usability/productivity without having to rely on someone else.

I strongly doubt you're creating any tools/add-ons that are on the caliber of commercially sold plug-ins. If you were able to develop DIY plug-ins on the level of those sold by Astute Graphics you would be selling them yourself. Astute Graphics has a decent sized team working on those.

WildWestDesigns said:
That's the key take away right there. Make YOU more productive, not always going to be the same from one person to the next.

This isn't some baloney about personal preference or anything like that. It is a FACT that other up-start applications like Affinity Designer, Inkscape, Vectornator, etc are not in the same league as Illustrator. There is a LOT of things Illustrator does that cannot be done in those other programs. Even basic level stuff such as zooming in/out, hand-panning the view, editing anchor points, etc is a LOT more efficient in Illustrator.

Add to that the fact there are many features and effects found in Illustrator that are not supported at all in rival applications. That figures in big when handling customer provided art files.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
30 years ago the Mac platform was vastly superior to Windows for graphic design purposes. Too many professional level applications were Mac-only releases. Adobe was one of the first credible vendors out of the gate. If you wanted to do professional level digital print design and advertising work back in the late 1980's and into the early 1990's it took a Mac to get the job done. And often that Mac would be loaded with Adobe software.

Times change, you should always be willing to re-evaluate what's going on. 20-30 yrs ago, one thing may have been true, it may not be true now. That's the thing, people always need to be willing to re-evaluate their situation.

The only reason why the sign industry has been historically dominated by the Windows platform goes back to the first "CAS" applications, their relation to CAD software (which was very PC oriented) and the first vinyl cutters and routing tables, most of which depended on MS-DOS and then Windows in order to run. CorelDRAW benefitted because it was the only general purpose vector-drawing application worth a hoot available for Windows. Aldus started taking the Windows platform more seriously when Windows 3.1 was released. When Windows 95 and 98 came out Macromedia and then Adobe started releasing Windows versions of their applications that had feature parity with their MacOS counterparts.

And the apparel industry as well.


I can open a 30 year old Photoshop or Illustrator file in the current versions of those applications with hardly any problem. The same thing isn't possible with CorelDRAW. For some stupid reason Corel cut off all support for CDR files made prior to version 6. As for 20 year old applications the only way that stuff can run is either on a really old computer or in a virtual machine running a really old OS.

Or thru an emulation layer like WINE or through open source programs that worked on those older files and are able to open them. Or you do have projects that bring in 16bit code into 64 bit Windows to run those old 9x programs as well. If you need DOS, run Free-DOS. A lot of ways around it then just those two of running a really old computer or in a VM. Even the VMs only support so far back. VMWare is deprecating support older then XP. VirtualBox never support 9X, to get 9X support, I had to VM Vista inside Vista use VirtualPC2007 (last one to have Win98 support) and use that to run Win 98. Ironically, it runs damn good despite being inside another VM.


Most sign designers design their stuff at full size. I think it's safe to make that claim. I've met lots of different sign designers over my 25+ years doing this kind of work. Most of them have worked at full size. I have 3 co-workers doing design work. They all do their primary designs at full size. The only time anything is shrunk down to a small scale is when client sketches are being made. And those are saved as separate files.

Yes and designing in sign specific programs would help with that at sizes larger then what Ai originally provided. I would image that there are sign shops that may not have needed to go beyond the size constraints as well as Ai. I can think of a lot of sign shops that have only done the smaller sizes and given where they are at, there is a huge market for.



What functions has Adobe removed from Illustrator or their other applications?

The article that talked to the Animate users I don't recall specially mentioning the exact function, that it was just a function that was removed and they were forced to upgrade due to what happened with Dolby. The others that I can think of had to deal with photographers. Facial recognition capabilities and geo location. Neither of which I would personally use, but enough people did use them to cause a mini stink about it. Those are the only ones that I am aware of, so it does happened.

Now, didn't they also remove some foundry listing with their fonts as well? That could affect the user as well, if those fonts that were removed were used.




That's an ILLUSION. Unless you're using software you developed yourself you're always going to be at the mercy of decisions made by other companies or if those companies are put out of business. It makes no difference if the software is sold via subscription or not. It doesn't even make a difference if it's "open source" or not. I've seen plenty of non-subscription software get broken via OS updates, forcing customers to upgrade. Companies buy other companies and kill applications (like Freehand).

First off, I said control, not really ownership, but even then you fall short on that.

Now the first thing here, you say "open source", I can only think that you are talking about closed source programs that can be had for free (Resolve being the most applicable). That isn't in any way remotely close to open source, not even open source in quotes. Normies may think that, but normies also think that they own the software when they purchased it during the age of perpetual licenses.

Second off, programs licensed under the MIT (or even some of the BSD licenses) require very little in return for use, source code etc of the software. Some MIT licensed programs only require a mention in the "About" section of your software and that's it. Free to do whatever else you want to with the software, even make it better without committing that code back to the original project.

Even if the original project kills off functionality in the open source world, there is nothing to stop someone else from bringing it back to life.

Biggest example with that, BGE. Blender killed that off with 2.8. Now you have UPBGE (which has one of the original developers of BGE working on UPBGE as well) that brought it back with their own fork of Blender and improving it (one of the reasons why Blender dropped it as it was lagging behind other engines). Fat chance that would happen in the close source world. So what you said about always being at the mercy of the decisions made by companies doesn't hold water in the open source world.

That's the type of control that I am talking about.

Since Blender is under the GPL3, not much ownership for the people forking it unless you are Ton, but even then I think it's under the Blender Foundation now as it is. But still have far more control then say Maya (as a competitor of Blender, but even compared to the Adobe programs as well, despite being under the GPL3).

I strongly doubt you're creating any tools/add-ons that are on the caliber of commercially sold plug-ins.

I never said that they were. I use them in house for my own competitive advantage. At least with software related to my business.

Software that I have written in relation to my hobby, that has been open sourced.

I have worked on open source projects here and there that did actually sell the plugin (precompiled versions were for sale, to get it free had to build it yourself), but I was only a minor contributor.



This isn't some baloney about personal preference or anything like that. It is a FACT that other up-start applications like Affinity Designer, Inkscape, Vectornator, etc are not in the same league as Illustrator. There is a LOT of things Illustrator does that cannot be done in those other programs. Even basic level stuff such as zooming in/out, hand-panning the view, editing anchor points, etc is a LOT more efficient in Illustrator.

And vice versa. Depends on what you need.

The thing to think about though, when I was switching, some of the time that I thought I was lacking a feature, it wasn't lacking, but it was done in a totally different way and it also didn't seem intuitive because I was so used to another way of doing things.

That wasn't all the time, but it happened enough for me to wonder if that's the case with some things.

Not all things, just some (I keep on mentioning that because I don't want you to think that's a catch all reasoning that I'm using, just something to consider).

Add to that the fact there are many features and effects found in Illustrator that are not supported at all in rival applications. That figures in big when handling customer provided art files.

I know you need editing, but if just viewing even those new affects can atleast be seen (and that's one reason why I'm able to get around needing Ai, as I only need to view the file, don't need to edit it, at least not as a raw Ai file). I know that's not your situation, that is just mine.
 
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