Anyone ele having issues with 3M ink Over-saturation?

[trimitbyrich]

Noticing a lot of 3M failures. We have a fleet of 40 vans that have failed, we did not print any of it, just did installs, but have noticed all of them have failed. I also have a buddy that is in another state and he's having similar problems. The symptoms look like over-saturation of ink to me since the vinyl was very aggressive during the installation process. The ink was an eco-solve and was printed on 2 different printers (according to the company).
The install was done by the book, no overstretching, no bridging, all recesses were walked in and even post heated with an IR thermometer to 200.
We worked with 3M to come up with a profile solution but have not found anything to work and keep the colors good. Essentially they are blaming us and I am a 3M Preferred Installer with over 33 years in the business. We've done hundreds and hundreds of similar installs in our shop with other brands and never had any failure like this.

 

[jfiscus]

I am not fully understanding what is failing or causing the failure you're seeing. Personally, we haven't seen any failures from any 3M products or 3M inks due to manufacturing errors any time that I can recall.

What ink, printer, and what material are being used? You might be able to find out those options, but there is also a cure time for all solvent inks and possibly they took the prints straight off their printers and threw them on the laminators. Since they printed them on 2 different printers/inks I'd bet they were really in a time crunch to get these jobs out.

It is also possible that the customer used the wrong type of vinyl for the project. Many different 3M vinyls look VERY similar and only by reading the core labels can you tell that you have the correct vinyl loaded on your printer. After it comes off the printer onto the take-up roll everyone has to take the printer's word for it that they used the correct 3M vinyl. We are primarily a 3M shop here and have around a dozen different 3M print vinyls in stock (all well labeled) and around 50 rolls in stock at all times, so I could see how someone could possibly have ordered/received/loaded/etc the wrong vinyl possibly. or even the wrong laminates in a similar scenario.

 

[CuttingEdgz]

Noticing a lot of 3M failures. We have a fleet of 40 vans that have failed, we did not print any of it, just did installs, but have noticed all of them have failed. I also have a buddy that is in another state and he's having similar problems. The symptoms look like over-saturation of ink to me since the vinyl was very aggressive during the installation process. The ink was an eco-solve and was printed on 2 different printers (according to the company).
The install was done by the book, no overstretching, no bridging, all recesses were walked in and even post heated with an IR thermometer to 200.
We worked with 3M to come up with a profile solution but have not found anything to work and keep the colors good. Essentially they are blaming us and I am a 3M Preferred Installer with over 33 years in the business. We've done hundreds and hundreds of similar installs in our shop with other brands and never had any failure like this.

I have printed on the new 180mc and it was like the air release channel would locked up couldn’t push even a tiny air bubble out with out looking like shit lm using a new Mutoh printer using the 180 c profile. I talked to my 3m rep this morning and they are aware of the problem.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Noticing a lot of 3M failures. We have a fleet of 40 vans that have failed, we did not print any of it, just did installs, but have noticed all of them have failed. I also have a buddy that is in another state and he's having similar problems. The symptoms look like over-saturation of ink to me since the vinyl was very aggressive during the installation process. The ink was an eco-solve and was printed on 2 different printers (according to the company).
The install was done by the book, no overstretching, no bridging, all recesses were walked in and even post heated with an IR thermometer to 200.
We worked with 3M to come up with a profile solution but have not found anything to work and keep the colors good. Essentially they are blaming us and I am a 3M Preferred Installer with over 33 years in the business. We've done hundreds and hundreds of similar installs in our shop with other brands and never had any failure like this.

I wasn't aware that 3M made inks....Also what's failing? Are the graphics coming off, is the laminate coming off, is it in the same spot on all the vehicles or is it different places? How soon after installing them are they failing? What type of material is it or supposed to be? Are these full or partial wraps, or cut graphics? Do you have any pics?

So many questions....

 

[Bigdawg]

We have been using IJ180cv3/8518 and it is soooo timely that you posted this. We have a truck that has now failed in the same place twice. It is NOT installer error... they were extra careful the second time. But there is a fairly heavy ink coverage there. The graphics are the same that we have printed for every other truck we've done for them, but this time it keeps failing in the same spot. We have cleaned and cleaned the area and are confident that it is not contamination. 3M's solutions was to keep it down with Primer - but we've never had to in the past.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Noticing a lot of 3M failures. We have a fleet of 40 vans that have failed, we did not print any of it, just did installs, but have noticed all of them have failed. I also have a buddy that is in another state and he's having similar problems. The symptoms look like over-saturation of ink to me since the vinyl was very aggressive during the installation process. The ink was an eco-solve and was printed on 2 different printers (according to the company).
The install was done by the book, no overstretching, no bridging, all recesses were walked in and even post heated with an IR thermometer to 200.
We worked with 3M to come up with a profile solution but have not found anything to work and keep the colors good. Essentially they are blaming us and I am a 3M Preferred Installer with over 33 years in the business. We've done hundreds and hundreds of similar installs in our shop with other brands and never had any failure like this.

Welcome to the 3M world... its always someone else's fault then they silently release fixes and everyone moves on.
I can tell you from roll to roll on our latexes we have issues with heat warping/color consistency and then on install, we are constantly getting "This wrap seems really aggressive are you sure you printed 180?" or "This doesn't want to stick right!". I've given up on 3M as a solution for my company for all but a handful of products, pair that with getting burned on $50,000+ of a bad 8508 laminate in 2014/2015 I don't hold them in high regard.

 

[klingsdesigns]

My guess is not letting dry enough for 24 hours.

 

[jfiscus]

Pictures, pictures, pictures people! How are we to guess what's up without being able to see the failure and having somewhat vague references to materials/inks?
And, yes, 3M Primer 94 or relief cuts are required/recommended for certain channels/recesses.

 

[jfiscus]

I wasn't aware that 3M made inks....Also what's failing? Are the graphics coming off, is the laminate coming off, is it in the same spot on all the vehicles or is it different places? How soon after installing them are they failing? What type of material is it or supposed to be? Are these full or partial wraps, or cut graphics? Do you have any pics?

So many questions....

3M co-brands the MCS compatible inks (which actually ARE a different formulation of the pigment/ink than the standard inkset is), but the whole MCS/warranty compatibility program involves the whole production/documentation process start to finish. Without proper systems(like following MCS guidelines) in place, how could you or 3M track/diagnose exactly where the problem may have occurred?

 

[Asuma01]

If you are sure the install isn't the problem.
Then it sounds like their media profile could be oversaturating the ink. And to top it off they probably aren't outgassing long enough before laminating. Failure to outgas before laminating causes the inks solvent to attack the adhesive making the adhesive overly aggressive and prone to failure because of a weakened solvent.

A tell tale sign that the print wasnt outgassed long enough is that bubbles start to form under the vinyl after application.

 

[trimitbyrich]

We have been using IJ180cv3/8518 and it is soooo timely that you posted this. We have a truck that has now failed in the same place twice. It is NOT installer error... they were extra careful the second time. But there is a fairly heavy ink coverage there. The graphics are the same that we have printed for every other truck we've done for them, but this time it keeps failing in the same spot. We have cleaned and cleaned the area and are confident that it is not contamination. 3M's solutions was to keep it down with Primer - but we've never had to in the past.

 

[trimitbyrich]

I have no idea what ink set or printers that were used. Have no idea on how long they out-gassed. I will say that the company that produced them is a pretty high volume, reputable printer and they would definitely know about out-gassing long enough.

I realize the easy answer is to primer everything and to me that isn't a good answer. NONE of these channels were bridged, heated and pushed in. All of them were walked in then post heated. We had to fight them the whole way with channels locking up and the adhesive being very aggressive, very symptomatic of over-satauration. They were failing within 2 days of being installed. We pulled them back in the shop, released the air from the channels then post heated again. They seemed to lay down fine but the customer called a few months after stating that they had all failed. Now, I could see maybe having 1 area out of 40 vehicles fail (and that is not acceptable in our shop) but all 40? Something is drastically wrong.

 

[jfiscus]

I'm still not seeing any "exact info" or photos of the failed areas on this project, or even what type of vehicles or locations that it is failing to help you out...

Exactly what material and laminate combo was this printed on? It could be that they are using an incorrect vinyl or laminate if its 40 vans from the same fleet. It's possible, everyone makes mistakes.
We are a pretty decent sized vinyl business (couple Mil annually), and know of some of the other large local companies that use incorrect vinyls all the time to cut costs.
We also see them constantly rushing everything all the time, and I'm still betting this is the issue in this case. (lack of solvent out-gassing time before lamination)
I'd bet that 99% of all people with a roll-to-roll printer don't ever loosen up their materials to outgass/dry correctly, and don't even know what solvents are or how they work/behave. Let alone the production floor guys who just started last week on the laminator.
We see it on installs we do for them or on failed jobs that we end up redoing for the customers.
All vinyl manufacturers have different application processes, most are pretty much the same, but there are a few finer points that vary from mfg to mfg, such as 3M's Primer 94.

Last of all, why no photos???

 

[Bigdawg]

I agree Trimitbyrich, we shouldn't suddenly have to start using Primer 94 when it is not needed.

jficus - in our case, we are absolutely using the correct material and the prints had plenty of time (and air) to outgas. That's probably not the problem. Once - maybe if someone rolled the roll too tight. But not twice. And 99% of the people don't know what they are doing? That's a pretty broad brush - and insight into how you view your fellow sign people. Lastly - no picture because the failure point would identify my customer and I ain't gonna do that on here.

 

[jfiscus]

I'm not looking to argue or accuse anyone, I'm just trying to get some info if you all really want others opinions or help with this situation.
Can you at least tell me the materials used or the vehicle type that it is going on?
Are all the failing materials from the same lot # or are different lot #s failing?
What location(s) on the vehicle is it failing on?
I've been using 3M Primer since I started, but only where/when appropriate or necessary.

And I may have used a bit too much of a broad brush before, but you can tell me your thoughts on how many of the sign shops that you interact with are knowledgeable versus not ,and compare that to the posts on here and let me know your opinion on the percentage... Maybe it is just my experience.

 

[Bigdawg]

We use IJ180cv3 / 8518 gloss lam. It is on the front fenders of a Chevy cab. We've probably done a few dozen of these vehicle over the last few years with no issues. We don't track lot numbers (there's a long explanation as to why) so I'm not sure about that. I suspect they were different because of the amount of time between printing.

And don't get me wrong - there are a lot of sign people who don't do what they should. But the majority of the shops I interact with (in real life!) are professionals who try to do the best job that they can for their customers, but yes, we have our hacks too. I've always felt people come here to learn, so I try not to judge them too harshly on what they don't know, because they are here trying to learn*.

*for the most part... we definitely have our share of unlearnables here too

 

[jim wells]

I too have been having a difficult time with 3m the last couple years and finally switched over to Avery. I started having call backs with simple shallow grooves coming up after a few months. I did one particular van 3 times with failures in the same spots. I switched to Avery and the issues disappeared. I have a system I built that lets me stand rolls of vinyl up with a low speed van that moves air through the vinyl. It has a motor that unwinds the roll to open up the layers. I am confident I am outgassing the vinyl better than most. After all that, 3m still seems overly aggressive and you have to be extremely careful on how you get rid of any bubbles otherwise they turn into many lines of micro bubble and looks terrible. I never in the past had such problems with 3m. I am pretty much washing my hands of their product

 

[Pitzu]

Even if you outgas the prints, if it's too much ink, it will affect the vinyl's properties, not only the adhesive. We had a problem with one of our printers, leaving ink drops on the vinyl. After fixing the problem, we noticed that where we had the ink drops the vinyl became mushy (like chewing gum).
If the ink is solvent based (eco-solvent, mild solvent, real solvent) and the color profile leaves too much ink on the media, I believe it will change the vinyl's properties. It's like putting some paint thinner on plastic.

 

[trimitbyrich]

you hit the nail on the head. The material is definitely over saturated. 3M just tested it and sent us the results and said there is nothing wrong with the material. Go figure, they sell the material and also run he tests to determine if there is a warranty issue. This is a $160,000 job, of course the test will pass. Can they actually test for over saturation of ink?

 

[Jester1167]

First manufactures will always tell you there is nothing wrong with their media. By the time it failed and they tested it the solvents are gone anyway.

First test as an installer is the smell when you open the box.If you smell the solvents your going to have a problem especially if it is a dark wrap. I'm talking about a distinct solvent smell slapping you in the face as soon as you open the box, not a faint smell.

Over saturating and/or not out-gassing causes the vinyl to swell up like a sponge. The more saturated the worse the problem. As it out-gasses through the laminate the vinyl will shrink causing failures. You can see this yourself by cutting open a used ink cart and putting a drop on some print media. Another example is when you remove the liner on a dark background with large white text and you can see where the lettering is from the back side

Also the vinyl will feel soft and rubbery. Which will allow you to stretch the vinyl more than normal even using your normal proper techniques. And, typically the edges will want to curl under as you remove the liner.

The adhesive will be more aggressive causing you to fight with the vinyl during installation causing even more stretching. This happens because the manufacture creates a micro texture to the adhesive over and above the air channels. The texture means less adhesive touches the surface making the adhesive seem less aggressive until you squeegee it (Pressure Sensitive Vinyl). Solvent soaked adhesive is softer and allows more contact. They used to use small glass particles in the original Control Tac. This minimized the adhesive contact until you squeegeed it.

Even though the adhesive seems more aggressive, it's not because it is diluted. Because of this you don't have the short term holding power. The adhesive is weak and can't hold the vinyl even with post heating.

If the graphics have large dark areas and large light areas, if you installed it well and it was a solvent issue, the dark areas will fail and the light won't. Overlaps are always the first to fail.

When you open a box with solvent soaked vinyl, call the producer and let them know and document it. Otherwise they will blame you.

Every moron who thinks out-gassing is a myth, please sell your solvent or eco-solvent printer and buy a latex printer.