Discussion Convince me not to buy a Colorado...

[White Haus]

Long story short, our main printer (Epson S60600) is down, dead in the water, kaput. I've been wasting time harassing techs and anyone I can get a hold of at Grimco (who we bought this thing from 1.5 years ago) as well as any other techs from other local dealers, no one will return my calls or provide anything remotely close to tech support. We're super exposed right now and have had to quickly move all our work to another printer, with no fix in sight.

I'm seriously considering just biting the bullet on a Colorado M5. I have no use for white, FLXfinish or any other fancy options at this time. I just need a reliable, solid printer. Speed and lower ink costs will be a nice bonus.

Our demand doesn't quite warrant the capacity of the Colorado, yet. But we have been growing really quickly and we need something reliable. I wouldn't buy another Roland, Mimaki, or Epson, and am not about to start drinking the HP Kool Aid.

The icing on the cake is that I can apply half what's left on the lease for the Epson towards a trade-in rebate on the Colorado....and at this rate we could have it (M5) installed before I actually see a part or tech from Epson.

Also comes with 2 year warranty from a reputable dealer that we trust.

Any reason I shouldn't jump on this? If you've made the jump from "entry-level/disposable" roll to roll printers to a Colorado, was there anything that made you regret the decision?

Primarily will be using for small decals, equipment decals, the odd banner, fleet graphics (printed/shape cut etc.). Not much in terms of full wraps.

Thanks.

 

[parrott]

It’s a great machine and gets the job done. I would buy another one if I had to do it over. Absolutely plan on buying the extended contract. We have had several major things go out on ours and you are looking at the cost of a latex machine when you add up what it costs out of contract. Very easy to use, ink cost is low, and it is fast for the price point. We run a roll 54”x150’ in a little over an hour.

Have had HP and Epson before this. Colorado is definitely on another level. We are considering buying another one or going up to a 3.2 meter.

Would be a good fit for you if you’re doing a lot of decal. Love the look of gloss ink on matte vinyl. Almost looks screen printed.

Happy to answer any questions.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We have two, had 3 over the last 5 years. When things break they can be very expensive, case in point my 1650 is on CYAN head set 5. At nearly $12,000 to replace if the first 4 weren't under warranty this machine would have been too expensive to keep.

But, they are fast and have a high quality output and when they are humming they fly. We did 80 rolls in 8 days on two machines with 8 hours a day of printing.

 

[victor bogdanov]

Make sure you get the service contract on day one. What they might not tell you is the service contract will cost more if you don't buy on day one and wait for warranty to expire. (the total cost of the service contract will be the same, if you buy on day one that cost will be spread over 5 years, or if you buy later that cost will be spread over 3 years),

Half the parts in my Colorado have been replaced at this point and I'm pretty sure the repairs would've cost over $50k easy (service contract was half of this over the repair period), not even including the printheads. Luckily I've only had to change out 1 head so far

Great printer. I have 1.3 million sq ft on mine, still going strong but things are getting worn out


I have had complaints on small stickers being grainy, if you have a customer that purchased stickers printed on a 8 color printer such as 80600 they might complain about more grain from the Colorado prints

A second backup printer is good to have if you can't be down for more than a few days every once in a while

 

[Zendavor Signs]

Does your S60 normally keep up ok? It's a big jump in productivity and cost from that to the M5. I would look into an S40 as a backup. Those printers are so inexpensive. I'm surprised about the Epson S60. We have a 7 year old S40 that has been a workkhorse. Planning to get a 2nd one soon. I have had the opposite experience. Years ago had a Fuji flatbed, then a $250k Canon flatbed. Lots of problems with the Canon and support was far from great. Have a 6 year old entry level Mimaki flatbed that has been nearly flawless. Way slower of course, but we no longer try to print low margin work in house

 

[White Haus]

Thanks guys, appreciate the quick answers. I tinkered with the Epson for a couple of hours this morning and have successfully printed 40' or so...not sure if it's temporary or not. Had 100% of the nozzles missing at first from not capping properly for the last 48 hours but got them all back. I finally had a service manager call me at the end of the day yesterday and walked me through a couple of things to try. Nothing worked yesterday but I kept trying this morning and eventually got it to start working and stop throwing errors. **Fingers crossed**

Some background on my thought process: We've had a Canon/Oce Arizona for 10 years and have had a fantastic experience with them (Canon) as far as sales, tech support and build quality. I put them at the very top of manufacturers that I trust and would consider putting in our shop, and it's a very short list. I've been speaking with Canon and the local dealer and both agree that the best approach would be to go through the dealer for a few reasons, main one being support will be more readily available. Tech support from this dealer has also been very good over the years, we've worked with them for 30+ since my father started the company.

I realize it's a huge jump from a S60 to an M5, quite possibly/realistically a jump that we're not quite ready for yet, but that will really depend on whether or not the issues with the Epson and the lack of support from Grimco continue.

My main concern is how we don't quite have the redundancies I thought we had. Yes, we can move work to our Mimaki UCJV but we've been pushing it hard and it's not the best printer for EVERYTHING.

Yes, I could add another Epson as a backup, but then I'd be stuck depending on Grimco. The Colorado (aside from the price tag) is the only logical choice to me, and would add a ton of capacity to our shop.
We've experience the most rapid growth I've ever seen in the last couple of months and I can't afford to be tinkering with printers and hoping that techs return my call. I don't care what it costs, I need fast, reliable access to tech support and Grimco will never be able to provide that.

I'm going to check one out locally tomorrow. They just had it installed a few weeks ago so should be interesting to hear their thoughts.

I'm also looking into our current power available - every time we add a piece of equipment our electrician tells us we're getting close to maxing out our panels. If we're out of space and have to look at adding more service, I might have to abandon this for now until we add more power or move into a bigger space w/ more power.

Needing a service contract in place is a bit concerning - I know we opted not to renew it on the Arizona, and only had to fly a tech out once in 10 years for a breakdown, aside from annual preventative maintenance trips. I realize they're completely different animals, but I'd still hope that the build quality is similar.
I'll find out about what service contract includes and if there is a difference in price depending on when it's purchased. If they advise there is no difference whether it's at time of purchase vs when included 2 year warranty is up, I'd want that in writing.

What about ventilation - do you guys find fumes bad on these units? Do they need to vented? We do have a building exhaust fan / fresh air intake, and just added a super powerful 8" inline exhaust fan for our new laser....but still sounds like we would have to add separate fume extraction.

I see on the site prep document they list it as a requirement:

Hardware requirement
External exhaust:
Air outlet of the system connected to an external exhaust.
Specification:
• Diameter outlet: 140 mm (5.5 inch)
• Minimum ventilation 120 m3/ hour (4238 ft3/hour)
• Maximum ventilation 200 m3/ hour (7063 ft3/hour)

I can't say I've ever seen them vented in any pictures or videos from other shops, so that one's got me a bit confused.

I think for now I'll slow the pace a bit on this, assuming that the Epson will continue to work. (Knock on wood) I still think the M5 is the right decision for us, but it might be wise to hold off a bit and make sure due diligence is exercised.

I'm assuming the volume that those things crank out will create other bottlenecks when it comes to laminating and cutting, so I might be best to address those areas first.

Thanks again for all the tips and feedback.

 

[FireSprint.com]

We have 3 M5Ws. We have a tech here twice a month on average with some downtime. Definitely have to get the service contract. They're great, but they honestly have the highest downtime of any equipment in our shop. We've gone about a month recently without a tech visit which is the longest we have gone in 3 years. Could be something we're doing, could be bad luck, could be bad local techs. I can't say exactly what it is.

It's something to be said though, instead of trading them in for something else, we just buy more to overcome the downtime. They are awesome when they are running.

 

[White Haus]

We have 3 M5Ws. We have a tech here twice a month on average with some downtime. Definitely have to get the service contract. They're great, but they honestly have the highest downtime of any equipment in our shop. We've gone about a month recently without a tech visit which is the longest we have gone in 3 years. Could be something we're doing, could be bad luck, could be bad local techs. I can't say exactly what it is.

It's something to be said though, instead of trading them in for something else, we just buy more to overcome the downtime. They are awesome when they are running.

Thanks Gene, appreciate the feedback.

Seems to be a common theme with anyone running these things hard, which is what I thought they were designed to do. Not super encouraging, but good to know nonetheless.

Our demands would be quite a bit less than most in this thread, from the sounds of it. I wonder if not pushing it that hard would make it break down less...... although seems kind of counter-intuitive consider the cost of these units.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Thanks Gene, appreciate the feedback.

Seems to be a common theme with anyone running these things hard, which is what I thought they were designed to do. Not super encouraging, but good to know nonetheless.

Our demands would be quite a bit less than most in this thread, from the sounds of it. I wonder if not pushing it that hard would make it break down less...... although seems kind of counter-intuitive consider the cost of these units.

They do not like to sit... we find we have more issues after they sit for awhile.

 

[victor bogdanov]

I can't say I've ever seen them vented in any pictures or videos from other shops, so that one's got me a bit confused.

They have built in filters, you can vent or use the filters.

If you dig around in the safety data you'll see it mentioned, very hidden away and in small print that to test for the chemical exposure etc they used a 4 hour per day print time/machine use (which is way under what most are doing with these printers). It sounds like if you are printing/breathing in more than 4hrs per day then you'll probably go over the exposure limits

I ensure I have major airflow around the printer and some additional air scrubbers running

 

[ikarasu]

Thanks guys, appreciate the quick answers. I tinkered with the Epson for a couple of hours this morning and have successfully printed 40' or so...not sure if it's temporary or not. Had 100% of the nozzles missing at first from not capping properly for the last 48 hours but got them all back. I finally had a service manager call me at the end of the day yesterday and walked me through a couple of things to try. Nothing worked yesterday but I kept trying this morning and eventually got it to start working and stop throwing errors. **Fingers crossed**

Some background on my thought process: We've had a Canon/Oce Arizona for 10 years and have had a fantastic experience with them (Canon) as far as sales, tech support and build quality. I put them at the very top of manufacturers that I trust and would consider putting in our shop, and it's a very short list. I've been speaking with Canon and the local dealer and both agree that the best approach would be to go through the dealer for a few reasons, main one being support will be more readily available. Tech support from this dealer has also been very good over the years, we've worked with them for 30+ since my father started the company.

I realize it's a huge jump from a S60 to an M5, quite possibly/realistically a jump that we're not quite ready for yet, but that will really depend on whether or not the issues with the Epson and the lack of support from Grimco continue.

My main concern is how we don't quite have the redundancies I thought we had. Yes, we can move work to our Mimaki UCJV but we've been pushing it hard and it's not the best printer for EVERYTHING.

Yes, I could add another Epson as a backup, but then I'd be stuck depending on Grimco. The Colorado (aside from the price tag) is the only logical choice to me, and would add a ton of capacity to our shop.
We've experience the most rapid growth I've ever seen in the last couple of months and I can't afford to be tinkering with printers and hoping that techs return my call. I don't care what it costs, I need fast, reliable access to tech support and Grimco will never be able to provide that.

I'm going to check one out locally tomorrow. They just had it installed a few weeks ago so should be interesting to hear their thoughts.

I'm also looking into our current power available - every time we add a piece of equipment our electrician tells us we're getting close to maxing out our panels. If we're out of space and have to look at adding more service, I might have to abandon this for now until we add more power or move into a bigger space w/ more power.

Needing a service contract in place is a bit concerning - I know we opted not to renew it on the Arizona, and only had to fly a tech out once in 10 years for a breakdown, aside from annual preventative maintenance trips. I realize they're completely different animals, but I'd still hope that the build quality is similar.
I'll find out about what service contract includes and if there is a difference in price depending on when it's purchased. If they advise there is no difference whether it's at time of purchase vs when included 2 year warranty is up, I'd want that in writing.

What about ventilation - do you guys find fumes bad on these units? Do they need to vented? We do have a building exhaust fan / fresh air intake, and just added a super powerful 8" inline exhaust fan for our new laser....but still sounds like we would have to add separate fume extraction.

I see on the site prep document they list it as a requirement:

Hardware requirement
External exhaust:
Air outlet of the system connected to an external exhaust.
Specification:
• Diameter outlet: 140 mm (5.5 inch)
• Minimum ventilation 120 m3/ hour (4238 ft3/hour)
• Maximum ventilation 200 m3/ hour (7063 ft3/hour)

I can't say I've ever seen them vented in any pictures or videos from other shops, so that one's got me a bit confused.

I think for now I'll slow the pace a bit on this, assuming that the Epson will continue to work. (Knock on wood) I still think the M5 is the right decision for us, but it might be wise to hold off a bit and make sure due diligence is exercised.

I'm assuming the volume that those things crank out will create other bottlenecks when it comes to laminating and cutting, so I might be best to address those areas first.

Thanks again for all the tips and feedback.

I just wanted to point out that Grimco is now selling the colorado...which means they'll also be doing support on it, So dont be surprised if instead of a tech flying to you, they just send a grimco tech once all their techs are trained on it!

We looked at the colorado too, The cost of the service contract is insane... You could lease / finance 2 printers for the price of the contract alone. It's a nice machine, but unless your machines are printing 16 hours a day and youre trying to get them down to 8... It's not worth it to purchase one. A lot of machines are great for "Growing into".... but I feel like the colorado isn't one of them.... As you could buy 2 printers for the price of the colorado...and then lease another for the price of the service contract alone. Great printer, and I hope to have one some day... but its not for every shop!

 

[BigfishDM]

Why is it a hard no on the Latex?

 

[FireSprint.com]

They have built in filters, you can vent or use the filters.

If you dig around in the safety data you'll see it mentioned, very hidden away and in small print that to test for the chemical exposure etc they used a 4 hour per day print time/machine use (which is way under what most are doing with these printers). It sounds like if you are printing/breathing in more than 4hrs per day then you'll probably go over the exposure limits

I ensure I have major airflow around the printer and some additional air scrubbers running

Interesting. I'll have to look into this. We have pretty good airflow in the shop in general, but we have not noticed any smell hardly anything noticeable at all around the printers. We do have regular air quality inspections, but not since the M5Ws, so we'll have to check again.

 

[FireSprint.com]

I just wanted to point out that Grimco is now selling the colorado...which means they'll also be doing support on it, So dont be surprised if instead of a tech flying to you, they just send a grimco tech once all their techs are trained on it!

We looked at the colorado too, The cost of the service contract is insane... You could lease / finance 2 printers for the price of the contract alone. It's a nice machine, but unless your machines are printing 16 hours a day and youre trying to get them down to 8... It's not worth it to purchase one. A lot of machines are great for "Growing into".... but I feel like the colorado isn't one of them.... As you could buy 2 printers for the price of the colorado...and then lease another for the price of the service contract alone. Great printer, and I hope to have one some day... but its not for every shop!

Yeah, the service contract is nuts. Hard to justify unless you are really running them.

 

[Morten CHristensen]

If you are happily married with Canon and like their service, and like paying them lots of money every month then the Colorado is for you.

 

[Pauly]

Fantastic machines.
Our 1650 is on year 5. Mine doesn't have much down time, but i'm also told mine is very well looked after compared to everyone elses.

Only thing is it wont compare to an Epson in quality especially small stickers.

We have ours vented with extraction fans. not common apparently, but there is a filter inside you replace once a year.
I decided on extracting it externally as the Colorado is in a semi enclosed room.

 

[victor bogdanov]

We have ours vented with extraction fans. not common apparently, but there is a filter inside you replace once a year.

Mine asks me to replace the filters every 3 months or so, I think it depends on the hours. Kind of ads up, that's almost $2k per year of filters per year

 

[Pauly]

Mine asks me to replace the filters every 3 months or so, I think it depends on the hours. Kind of ads up, that's almost $2k per year of filters per year

Yeah I did the extraction fans a year in. 2 sets of filters paid for the setup. So now there's no filters.

 

[victor bogdanov]

Yeah I did the extraction fans a year in. 2 sets of filters paid for the setup. So now there's no filters.

Do you have an addional fan to blow the air out, I could vent mine pretty easily. Can you share what set up you used

 

[White Haus]

Fantastic machines.
Our 1650 is on year 5. Mine doesn't have much down time, but i'm also told mine is very well looked after compared to everyone elses.

Only thing is it wont compare to an Epson in quality especially small stickers.

We have ours vented with extraction fans. not common apparently, but there is a filter inside you replace once a year.
I decided on extracting it externally as the Colorado is in a semi enclosed room.

Thanks Pauly, good to hear you've had a positive experience with yours.

That's also good to know about the quality compared to Epson, that's a big factor for us and most of what we do. (small stickers)

Knowing how much you guys are spending on filters, I'd probably opt to vent the unit outside. It wasn't terribly expensive to have our fume extraction installed for the laser and I don't love the idea of yet another expensive consumable to add to the list.

Our Epson seems to be mostly back to normal, and despite 2-3 days of delays I've finally received some phone support from a couple of different dealers. We still don't know what happened to this thing, but we've run a few rolls successfully without it throwing any errors, so that's progress.

I think for now I'll slow the pace and do some proper research on this printer. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the M5 but now that the urgency is gone I'd be wise to make sure this is actually a good move for us.
I'd like to see/handle sample prints from our files and compare to output from the Epson, and get some hands on experience with one of them.

There is still a scenario where we could use all 3 printers for their own best uses, but if I'm spending that kind of money on a roll to roll printer it better be able to handle most of our work.

Thanks again for all the valuable input, I really appreciate it.