Decal setup advice needed

[VFM]

Hello everyone.

I need to create crystal clear self stick, possibly static, decals printed with durable 1-2mm crisp black lines. Thats it for my business application. My customers have been asking for them and I need to move on it in the next month or so.

My two college age sons, both artists, chomped at the bit to have the opportunity to create small runs of decals for themselves and their cohorts to earn extra cash. I also can profit by adding decals into my business, other than my specific need.

I am looking at the Mikami CJV30-60, used.

Here are my questions:
Any other printer/plotter to consider? I will buy a used machine.
Vinyl choices? Need the clearest available with clean semi removable properties.
Static choices?
Ink SS21?
Is there a way to score the backing material on the clear vinyl for easy removal? Those decals will be approximately 3x3

Thanks in advance! Scott

 

[Dentafrice]

Subscribed, interested!

 

[jiarby]

Are the boys going into the bootleg parking decal business at school?

 

[Salmoneye]

You say that you need this for your business, are you always printing the same stickers? If so jobbing it out to a flexo printer might be way, way cheaper with no learning curve to boot.

You won't get a scored back like you do on other ordered stickers but when you weed away the excess material between the stickers you made it leaves a ridge that you can catch with a fingernail or a knife. If these stickers need to be durable at all with sun, abrasion, chemical resistance... you will need to buy a laminator and laminate the sheets as well. A decent laminator might cost 1/2 as much as your printer and take up the same amount of room.

Printers are great but they also require maintenance and are not happy if you are not running and maintaining them very regularly. You will also need a rip and the learning curve on this stuff can be a bit steep. Not trying to talk you out of it at all just making sure you know what you are getting yourself into.

Tell us a little more about the stickers you need and we can be more helpful.

 

[VFM]

Are the boys going into the bootleg parking decal business at school?

Hehe, no. I am a bit more forward thinking than that. The older one will end up in the film industry after he graduates next year, its the younger one I worry about and who has the real interest in graphic arts.

That said I have access to a ready and willing group of artists who want their own artwork printed, not to mention logos and such for my customers. I can easily see setting up a small sticker website separate from my business and ways of growing it into a larger business that the younger can run. He is quite interested in the idea and already has a company name.

 

[VFM]

You say that you need this for your business, are you always printing the same stickers? If so jobbing it out to a flexo printer might be way, way cheaper with no learning curve to boot.

Thanks Salmoneye. That is the catch... I need the ability to change the artwork on the fly relative to each customers specific design. I will print every two or three days day but dont know what or how many although it will be 1 or 2 or up to several hundred at a time. Waiting a few days is out of the question.

Adding the printer to my engraving business isn't about profiting on that item, its about satisfying my customers needs. However it should pay for a used machine and peripheral items over the course of a year since I can charge a premium price per decal.

The ridge will work but how do they get the scored back?

Abrasion resistance is the only concern but it will be relatively light. Life expectancy of less than two years. I was reading the SS32 ink was resilient and hoping it would suffice.

Laminating is an option I would rather avoid but will do if needed. Thats a big heads up as to my startup costs. Knew about the rip software but havent researched which one yet.

Learning curves... been there. Spent 1.5 years dealing with bad engraving cutters from my supplier who kept telling me it was me. When they sent me 4 good cutters out of 30 and then told me I had to wait two months for them to make new ones I spent $2000 on a used cutter grinder of my own. Took me darn near 3 years to get excellent, consistent results and even my first attempts were better than the junk from that supplier. You would be amazed at the intricacies of a cutter. Then there was Corel, Zenetech and Roland software...

 

[Fred Weiss]

Your initial requirements can be met by pretty much any outdoor printer on the market. Since your initial requirements will not, IMHO, meet any reasonable test of cost justifiability, but you feel future requirements will ... then you should be looking at what you need to meet those requirements.

First and foremost, black ink or thermal resin is opaque and can be applied to clear films, but most colors are not and will require a basecoat of white ink or resin. Presumably you will want to be able to print colors as customers want their logos printed and artists want their work printed. Therefore, you should be looking for a print and cut system that supports spot white ink or resin and software that will handle designing and driving that equipment.

The white basecoat capability ends up greatly reducing your options. The Gerber Edge and the Summa Durachrome systems have owned that market for a number of years. White ink is a very recent development for inkjets by comparison and original market entries have had lots of problems ... so going with a used inkjet with white ink capability will be a chancy decision.

That leaves you with the used Gerber Edge or Summa Durachrome market or a new inkjet with better white ink systems than previously available. Used Edges in reasonable condition with a suitable plotter and software typically go in the $5K to $10K range. Add a few thousand for the used Summas. Get into a new inkjet with plotter and software and you're well over $10K.

Your 3" x 3" black on clear decals would wholesale from me for 50¢ each on 3M cast clear and 57¢ each on clear static cling before deducting available volume discounts. You can get the equivalent from an inkjet outsource for around 30¢ each. Typical turnaround time is one to three days.

So comparing an Edge print at 50¢ each with a quick turnaround to you picking up a used Edge system and then supplying the materials, learning to use it and eating the waste you will be about 35¢ each ahead by producing them in-house not counting your labor and overhead costs. So if you are lucky and find a used system for $5K, your break even point (not counting your labor or overhead) is $5,000 / .35¢ = 14,285 decals.

If you go with a white ink capable inkjet, plotter, software and a laminator, you will reduce your costs for materials to about 6¢ or 7¢ each versus paying an outsource his profit for labor of about 23¢ each. So now we're looking at recovering an investment of let's say $15K from your decal business.

$15,000 / 23¢ = 65,217 decals to break even not counting labor or overhead.

You might want to sit down with a business plan and a sharp pencil to see if what you want to do makes a lot of sense. Just sayin'.

 

[iSign]

VFM ...wow, that's gotta be one of the most informative replies you could ever hope to get here or anywhere... Fred is our fearless leader here, and quite a knowledgable guy (as you can see)... and most of all, among the most generous with his time, just to even run this site, let alone offer such well thought words of wisdom...

...so, that said, i don't suppose there is much left to add... but I've owned a Gerber Edge 2 for almost 10 years, and even after adding a Mimaki inkjet 5 years ago, my edge still runs some job or other 3 or 4 days a week...

One thing I wonder about is the stated intention of printing on clear. Fred is correct about issues with white ink in the inkjet technology... and the other replies are correct in terms of significant maintenance concerns with inkjet technology... so, I would agree that an Edge or Durachrome is a better choice for white (to provide a backing for colors on clear, so they are not weak translucent washed of color)...

but I do so many tens of thousands of decals for the last decade, and by contour cutting them, less then 5% are on clear stock... so even though that is what you say you want to do, if a client said that, I would usually assume (and would usually be correct) that they don't understand all their options & don't really "need" that...

 

[Salmoneye]

Because I have never used one I didn't even think of an edge. That would be perfect if you decide to buy. Fred, how abrasion resistant are the prints? Ink jet would definitely require laminate. A laminator the size required for an edge though would be super affordable. Financially it might not make sense but if you really have kids into graphic art they will probably have a blast with it, or when they don't you can sell it to me really cheap. lol

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred, how abrasion resistant are the prints?

They are more resistant than without the overprint but it is not as tough as a film overlaminate. What it is, is invisible to the eye and simply like an extra print pass from a workflow point of view. But it is only microns thick.