do I stick to my guns or cave in?

[signguy 55]

Hello all. First some background. Guy calls up from out of state, they've bought an apartment complex and needs signs changed out. Lighted cabinet with 6'x8 faces and some type of monument sign with routed or Gemini letters (based on pics of another complex they own). This would have to be built from scratch. (Sale is to go thru end of December)

Anyway, I go and take pics, measurements, etc. Then comes the dreaded "can you draw up something so we can see what it looks like?" I replied in an email that I would charge a design / trip fee of $100 to be deducted off final price since I would have a couple of hours invested in the job. I told him even though I did the leg work, and he was wanting designs there was no guarantee that he would use me to do the job.

He replies "We've never had to pay upfront before to any sign company." This would be a sweet job to have, but want to know..........

1) do I just throw a price at him (without a design) and then hope he plans to pay a deposit and balance due on completion?
2) cave in and say "I'm sorry", do the free design / quote and hope for the best?
3) stick to my guns and see who finally gets the job?

Thanks!!

 

[signmeup]

Cut and paste his other sign into a photo of the new place and quote him that.

 

[Mosh]

Quote without design.

 

[fisheye48]

if you do send him a proof watermark it so he cant take it down the road to somebody who might be cheaper

 

[Mosh]

There are ways around a watermark. I hear some low-ballers do this!

 

[GK]

if you do send him a proof watermark it so he cant take it down the road to somebody who might be cheaper

If they are going to be dishonest and shady to begin with, this isn't going to stop them or another dishonest company to reproduce it. There might be a reason he is out of state and not using his previous sign companies...

 

[Letterbox Mike]

These are always tough ones. We all always want to say "stick to your guns" and quote it without any design, but the reality is these types of signs are hard to quote without some sort of artwork and they're even harder to sell without a design to show the customer. I hate to say it, but throw together a quick but nice 15 minute layout to at least give them an idea or starting point what you're quoting and what they're buying to make them feel warm and fuzzy. It's a risk, but I also see it as an investment in securing the work. I don't like it but it's kinda' the way it is...

 

[Rick]

First off, 100 bucks is chump change for designing an apartment monument sign. I would eat that up in measuring the property and checking the sign code.

I don't know how much the job is but some apartment jobs I have been involved with can range from 20k, all the way to 200k+. The motivating factor for doing free design is the possibility of a very large return. I am personally against giving away design, but I freelance to shops who do give it away. To them it is usually worth it and they never worry about someone stealing the design, they claim its the risk of doing spec work.

If they are only going off bids based on price, then before doing any freebie design it would be nice to know the budget. That way you are not designing some elaborate monument when all they budgeted was an old stick and reused coroplast....

Another option is: You can try charging for the design within their budget and then allowing them to send the designs out for competitive bid, that way everyone is bidding on the same thing and you still get paid for the design.

 

[Rodi]

If they don't respect you at this end of the deal, how are they going to react to you as this progresses. It is just business, time=money, "Art takes time time is money and money is scarce and that ain't funny." (Ode to the KINKS!)

 

[Brandon708]

if your not busy then do it for free just to get the job. If you are busy and have other things to do then stick to your guns. Its slow right now and that seems like a nice job to get. Asking for $100 seems petty if you get the job. But you never know with these people.

good luck!

 

[BargainSigns]

Get a deposit for your work. This guy is accustomed to pushing people around. If he has never had to pay a sign company before for this service why isn't he using them? Maybe because he didn't pay for his other signs?!

Why is your work less valuable then his?

Just my 2 cents.
Marianna

 

[CES020]

We do that type of work also, almost always have to do the proposal/concept for free. Keeping in mind, there's a VERY large difference in designing a sign "package" that is themed and fits into the building and just designing a couple of concepts. I'd never ever give away a sign package design, but we almost have to give away the small stuff. If we don't, it's simple, they just go to someone that will, and there are people that will. So we'd lose the job for certain. I've stuck to my guns before and I've lost the work. Good work, larger jobs.

As Rick said, you're talking $20,000 and up jobs, and you're digging your heels in over $100? $200? Not me. It's a risk you have to take. Do a good job and you'll land the entire job and probably get a ton more work from it. Those big jobs almost always spawn off lots of smaller jobs for other people on the site or even the original person ordering.

If it were me, I'd tell him I'd waive the cost this time and try and leave a good impression with them so you do get the job.

 

[Brandon708]

btw on the bottom of my quotes it states....
This is an unpublished drawing in connection with this project we are planning for you. This is not to be copied, repoduced, exhibited or shown to anyone outside of your organization without the written permission of (your sign company) Unauthorized use will incur a design charge. Artwork is exclusive property of (your sign company)

Make sure they read and understand what that means also sign it. Also keep a copy for yourself. If you do end up not getting the job and they used your drawing you can charge them for you design time. Via bill and phone call from your lawyer.

 

[heyskull]

Typical loud mouth A**hole.
Some clients try to use us signmakers as a free design studio.
If you have to give this client a design please put a copyright notice on it and in joking conversation tell him the amount of companies you have taken to court and how much money you have taken them for.
Don't give digital copies and all paper copies have to be of a suitable low resolution.
I know things are hard at the moment but most sweet deals as far as big jobs go are just pie in the sky. If I had a dollar for every customer who came into my shop saying their business was going to be multi-national and if I helped them out at the start I would have all there work $$$$$$ I would have about $85 dollars now .....LOL

Stick to your guns.
I agree with all of the above.

SC

 

[Brandon708]

Typical loud mouth A**hole.
If I had a dollar for every customer who came into my shop saying their business was going to be multi-national and if I helped them out at the start I would have all there work $$$$$$ I would have about $85 dollars now .....LOL

SC

edited: by me

 

[Circleville Signs]

Another thing to keep in mind on these types of projects -

Most of these devlopers have a "boilerplate" contract. They are getting their finacinc from a bank, and that is based upon draws. They WILL string your payments out along with those draws, and will expect YOU to carry the cost of materials for however long you have to do so. Also, read that contract VERY carefully. They will hold you laiable for deadlines, EVEN IF the property is not prepared for signage installation.

In other words, CYA at all times, and be prepared to be a 3-6 month lender.


Gary

 

[wrapman jamz]

Pass. Stick to your guns. 100% of nothing is NOTHING. If a customer gives you nothing that's what they can expect in return. Read all the posts about the guy who hasn't paid. I have been stiffed once in 43 years. Hell I've even told major corporations to "Prepay or PUNT" ...They wired the money to my account.

I work for MONEY, you should too.

 

[scarface]

I'd quote without a design and then add some in there to cover your time some still.

I'd stress that 50% down shows a effort on the customers end as well as mine since i have to deliver the product after 50% is down to get this project underway

 

[Signco Inc]

Do the survey, sketch and only send .jpg