Fading Issues on Gerber ION

[Craig Malmberg]

I now have had my Gerber ION for 26 months. When all the fading issues were being discussed in November of 2009, I thought it must be a fluke. Now I have customers coming in complaining about their signs fading. Red is the biggest issue and then yellows or light colors. I use the ION on all sorts of material with the emphasis on MDO, Aluminum and Coro. The fading issue is not localized to one material. I have issues popping up on all materials. I have produced over $330,000 with the ION over the last two years. This is the biggest and widespread issue that we have had to deal with over the last 20 years. This issue could easily put me out of business if not handled properly. Is anyone else having similar issues with fading on their ION or CAT? How are you handling your customers? Have you had any help or discussions with Gerber?

 

[omgsideburns]

Are you laminating?

 

[J Hill Designs]

another reason gerber is getting out of the flatbed market perhaps?

 

[Craig Malmberg]

On some but not all. I tried laminating but unless you have a full graphic covering the whole MDO board or aluminum, it creates air gaps where there is only white next to the print. I do not even try to laminate coro. When I bought this printer, it was to get away from laminating and sold to me as such.

 

[tcorn1965]

another reason gerber is getting out of the flatbed market perhaps?

+1-I bet you are right.
We have had ours about a year printing mostly on coro and some ceramic tiles, we have not come across that issue YET. We also have a sign outside since day one, in the elements and it still looks fine. Like I said though we have had it for only a year. I have heard of others complaining that their signs were fading after only six months.

Terry

 

[LarryB]

Here is a FAQ from Gerber's website.

Q: What is the outdoor durability of the Solara ion prints?
A: Graphics created by the Gerber Solara ion are outdoor-durable for up to three years.
However, environment and application will determine the ultimate outdoor life span and
may result in outdoor durability of greater or less than three years.

I had an Ion less than a year and ended up sending it back because of a lot of issues. I am still dealing with signs fading and replacing them at my cost.

 

[gnemmas]

This is a good alarm for all of us either solvent, eco-sol or latex printers. What is the color warranty?

We warranty our signs for 4 years against fading & workmanship. It works like vehicle tire warranty, if it fails in two years, we will redo it for 50% of the cost, and customer has a new 4 years warranty.

Since switched to HP latex, we were reducing laminating on certain signage deemed short term. WE hope the laminated latex ink will last for more than 4 years. We are going to try pushing all long term signage to black color, as black lasts forever!

 

[Craig Malmberg]

Are you using a laminated film or liquid lamination?

 

[Rooster]

UV inks are usually rated two years outdoors without lamination depending on the environment they're displayed in. I'm assuming you get a lot of sun in Texas and I'll bet there's more south facing signs coming back than north facing.

Sounds like your signs are just reaching their expected lifespan. Red's are always the first to go. UV inks have some great benefits over solvent, but expected lifespan isn't one of them.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

You all know I'm rolling on the floor laughing. ..excuse me.

Sure am glad I don't have that problem since I hand letter and all my paints do not fade that fast since I use a UV clear coat no worries. your right I don't bring the cash you can with a printer, also don't have the expense, the stress, or the problems .. just paint, brushes, and talent which I learned in school.

Had to say that since 1985 all I've heard is how great vinyl and print are and so much better then paint. So I'm laughing

Hope ya figure it out.

 

[LarryB]

UV inks are usually rated two years outdoors without lamination depending on the environment they're displayed in. I'm assuming you get a lot of sun in Texas and I'll bet there's more south facing signs coming back than north facing.

Sounds like your signs are just reaching their expected lifespan. Red's are always the first to go. UV inks have some great benefits over solvent, but expected lifespan isn't one of them.

How would you feel if you dropped $100K on a UV printer and were told this new UV ink will hold up 3+ years outdoor with no over laminate. You buy the printer and 6 months later you have customers returning signs which are fading. I guess in Texas, the Gerber ink does not work well.
I have printed signs with my Roland printer which have been outdoors for 2+ years and they have not faded at all.

 

[gnemmas]

All colors fades under sun in different degrees. Paint included.

Craig, you can laugh all you want. Do you warranty your job? How long? I am willing to bet you that high performance vinyl will last longer under the sun color for color, and doesn't require uv clear coat.

Besides, fading is a good thing. that's how we get recurring jobs, replace their signs every 4 years. As General Motors said, how are we stay in business if our cars last forever?

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Gnemmas ... in the 80s I would take ya up on that bet easy, I just redid a sign 1st painted 17 years ago well even after 10 years it needed a repaint which I did, then just within the last month I re-did new with MDO this time instead of 3/8 ..1/2 in hopes it will hold up longer, for the extra $40, funny about what the MDO cost then and I used up a quart of paint. Sold the job riding my bike,payed a friend to haul the sign and help put up.

Your right re-selling the same job 3 years seems to quick 10-7 years maybe to long but I'm proud they last that long, yes I did UV clear coat, like most signs I do now because the lead was taken out ( when the last time you saw a kid chewing on a sign ) oh I do not warranty my work since there is no need to if it does not perform to my expectations I'll redo, repair, replace, customers know that about me since 1/3 of my work comes from a past job maybe alot more then I know since I hustle knocking on doors and many seen my work and by the time it is sold they have enough trust in what I'll do, and will get it right even after being paid.

 

[ellsmako]

You all know I'm rolling on the floor laughing. ..excuse me.

Sure am glad I don't have that problem since I hand letter and all my paints do not fade that fast since I use a UV clear coat no worries. your right I don't bring the cash you can with a printer, also don't have the expense, the stress, or the problems .. just paint, brushes, and talent which I learned in school.

Had to say that since 1985 all I've heard is how great vinyl and print are and so much better then paint. So I'm laughing

Hope ya figure it out.

What a load of horse hooey ! Really brushes paint and talent for sign making, Geesum you must have some pretty uncreative people in your parts. The only signs around here like that are done with vlynle cutters and colored boards. Here we deal with art directors, creative agencies are well as photographs, multiple sizes , fonts and of course deadlines for tomorrow,.. what a crock !.

Glad its working for you but you did read the heading about being flatbed printer section.

 

[particleman]

You all know I'm rolling on the floor laughing. ..excuse me.

Sure am glad I don't have that problem since I hand letter and all my paints do not fade that fast since I use a UV clear coat no worries. your right I don't bring the cash you can with a printer, also don't have the expense, the stress, or the problems .. just paint, brushes, and talent which I learned in school.

Had to say that since 1985 all I've heard is how great vinyl and print are and so much better then paint. So I'm laughing

Hope ya figure it out.

You're not the only one on the floor laughing... while you're(this is how you spell it) stuck in 1985 using your brushes and talent the rest of us have taken advantage of technology and make money at it with a heck of a lot less labor than you. Not to mention the (millions) of customers that have been satisfied by the signs these machines put out. Bashing cut vinyl to UV printers.. really? Your contribution to this thread is pointless, no offense...

Anyway, back on the topic. UV inks will not last forever. The number that gets thrown out to us is 2 years by most companies. That is totally dependant on where the sign is located as Rooster pointed out. It has been explained to me several times that since UV inks cannot contain any UV inhibators (so the lamps will cure the ink) you suffer fading as a result of this. It is a fine line to develop an ink that will resist the sun and still cure properly under the UV lamps, just the nature of the technology. If you're trying to protect the signs from fading I would recommend a laminate that provides UV protection.

 

[Mosh]

Who cares, in 5 years NO MORE ions...sorry Gerber Honks! So I guess asking Gerber won't do any good!!!!
Discontinued and only stocking parks and ink for 5 years, that sucks! Guess They knew they had a stinker on
their hands and are unloading it. $100 K down the drain!!!! I am sticking with Roland!

 

[ellsmako]

Yes there is no way to ask gerber, but then again as written above usually 2 years is ok since material give out as well as inks fade. Coating will help, who knows maybe this is also why gerber is getting out.

 

[RoCo]

All this fading ink talk brought an old question to mind: I'm still wondering why no one makes a solvent flatbed printer? OCE had the Arizona flatbed years ago, but chucked it in favor of chasing UV inks. Solvent ink is proven stronger and cheaper. If it was so terrible to work with then there wouldn't be ANY solvent printers of any kind being made, let alone screenprinting. It seems to me someone would enter the market with a $40-60K solvent ink-based flatbed printer and create a pretty decent market, maybe even one of these failed UV companies. Why not retrofit the design of some discarded UV flatbed (like a Solara - had the roll-to-roll feature, too) to run solvent inks. A Seiko 64 in 48x96 flatbed form would look pretty damn attractive to some smaller shops out there. Am I missing something? Is the anti-solvent ink propaganda machine that powerful? and, FWIW, I ran an Arizona 180 for 10+ years and looked VERY hard at a Gerber, including making a trip to their plant in CT. I now run a Scitex FB6100 UV.

 

[SE SignSupply]

All this fading ink talk brought an old question to mind: I'm still wondering why no one makes a solvent flatbed printer? OCE had the Arizona flatbed years ago, but chucked it in favor of chasing UV inks. Solvent ink is proven stronger and cheaper. If it was so terrible to work with then there wouldn't be ANY solvent printers of any kind being made, let alone screenprinting. It seems to me someone would enter the market with a $40-60K solvent ink-based flatbed printer and create a pretty decent market, maybe even one of these failed UV companies. Why not retrofit the design of some discarded UV flatbed (like a Solara - had the roll-to-roll feature, too) to run solvent inks. A Seiko 64 in 48x96 flatbed form would look pretty damn attractive to some smaller shops out there. Am I missing something? Is the anti-solvent ink propaganda machine that powerful? and, FWIW, I ran an Arizona 180 for 10+ years and looked VERY hard at a Gerber, including making a trip to their plant in CT. I now run a Scitex FB6100 UV.

http://www.mutoh.com/valuejet-1608hs.php

 

[ellsmako]

First of all you have to understand that solvent printer have at least two problems,..... or more.

Solvents are usually flammable.
They off gas for awhile.
Ink must be heated or fanned let alone vented outside.
inks don't stick well to many materials.
dot gain is also a problem.
Environmental issues as well.

Now there are some " Pardon the expression " Eco solvents but thats like saying clean coal or safe Nuclear, or clean hydro