Flatbed questions

[FishnSigns]

Hello All -
I have been reading through past posts on signs101, watching youtube videos, and talking to vendors for the past 6 months and I think it's finally time to pull the trigger on a new flatbed printer. First... I wanted to thank all of you for your posts and info. There is a lot of great knowledge on this site so thank you!

I will be at the HP demo facility in Atlanta next week and in Chicago at the Oce demo facility the following week. I'm looking at the FB700 and the Arizona 360GT. I thought I had my decision narrowed to these two machines, now I can't stop reading about CET. I also have a rep in my ear about the Agfa printers, talking about their quality, etc... I have to say, this is an exciting process but a little nerve racking. When dropping $150K on a printer, you want to make sure it's of good quality, has great supporting service, and can deliver what our clients are looking for. The CET sounds like a lot of printer for the money. I like what I've read on this site about service and quality but I guess I still need some convincing. The Agfa printers seem slow for the money but the quality sounds good.

A few questions if I may:
1. I watched a CET video on youtube (published by CET). They were printing banner material and it looked like they were 50 or so feet into a run while the take-up reel was telescoping more than 5". Are there tracking issues with the printers? Strange a manufacturer would post a video with a "problem" in it.

2. The printer we buy will be in with the guys in a production area. Any comments on smell/odor from the Oce, HP or CET? How well do we need to ventilate the area? We have all of our solvent machines in a clean/ventilated room. Should we handle the flatbed the same way?

3. We are in Colorado. I would love to see these printers in action in a real world environment. Would anyone in Colorado, or surrounding states be willing to give us the nickle tour? I would truly appreciate this and would be happy to trade a steak dinner for the hospitality. The sales people and techs know how to "sell" a machine but I want to know how they really perform in a real world setting.

I can't thank you enough for your help on this.

 

[HulkSmash]

Hello All -
I have been reading through past posts on signs101, watching youtube videos, and talking to vendors for the past 6 months and I think it's finally time to pull the trigger on a new flatbed printer. First... I wanted to thank all of you for your posts and info. There is a lot of great knowledge on this site so thank you!

I will be at the HP demo facility in Atlanta next week and in Chicago at the Oce demo facility the following week. I'm looking at the FB700 and the Arizona 360GT. I thought I had my decision narrowed to these two machines, now I can't stop reading about CET. I also have a rep in my ear about the Agfa printers, talking about their quality, etc... I have to say, this is an exciting process but a little nerve racking. When dropping $150K on a printer, you want to make sure it's of good quality, has great supporting service, and can deliver what our clients are looking for. The CET sounds like a lot of printer for the money. I like what I've read on this site about service and quality but I guess I still need some convincing. The Agfa printers seem slow for the money but the quality sounds good.

A few questions if I may:
1. I watched a CET video on youtube (published by CET). They were printing banner material and it looked like they were 50 or so feet into a run while the take-up reel was telescoping more than 5". Are there tracking issues with the printers? Strange a manufacturer would post a video with a "problem" in it.

2. The printer we buy will be in with the guys in a production area. Any comments on smell/odor from the Oce, HP or CET? How well do we need to ventilate the area? We have all of our solvent machines in a clean/ventilated room. Should we handle the flatbed the same way?

3. We are in Colorado. I would love to see these printers in action in a real world environment. Would anyone in Colorado, or surrounding states be willing to give us the nickle tour? I would truly appreciate this and would be happy to trade a steak dinner for the hospitality. The sales people and techs know how to "sell" a machine but I want to know how they really perform in a real world setting.

I can't thank you enough for your help on this.

Saw the FB, was invited to atlanta by HP.
great machine, not a work horse in my opinion. Also not a massive fan of the hybrid.


CET best bang for your buck. Great company..great machine. Talk to jack skidmore over there. They can show you the machine while your in Atlanta, that's where their stuff is out of also.
Our next flatbed will be a CET most likely.


I operated one of the very first Oce Arizona 350 gt. Most reliable machine. a tad overpriced.. but i love the company, and the machine.

 

[FishnSigns]

Thanks for the info. I will reach out to CET tomorrow. I fly into Atlanta on Tuesday, maybe I can check out CET's products before leaving. The hybrids make me a little nervous as well but I like the idea of having an 8' RTR option in the shop.

 

[HulkSmash]

Thanks for the info. I will reach out to CET tomorrow. I fly into Atlanta on Tuesday, maybe I can check out CET's products before leaving. The hybrids make me a little nervous as well but I like the idea of having an 8' RTR option in the shop.

If you're trying to have the option to do 8' banners, it's a waste of money in our area. The largest grand format printer in the world is located in Longmont. Not to mention Sign language, and GBC. all within 20 miles of my shop.

I can get a wholesale banner for 45cents a SQFT all day in Denver. There are so many grand format roll to roll printers that trying to compete will just stress you out. You can pay less to get the banner then you can produce it for. Trust me, we've tried.

Stick to the true flatbed for that reason. More versatile, and just a better overall product.. in my opinion.

 

[FishnSigns]

Good point. For the 15K, I would be better off reinvesting that in the shop. How do you feel about white ink? We get the occasional request but not regular requests. Not sure how this will change with a flatbed?

Don't want to compete with the GBC's of the world, we just want to increase our capability and stay focused on high quality graphics.

Go Colorado!

 

[HulkSmash]

Good point. For the 15K, I would be better off reinvesting that in the shop. How do you feel about white ink? We get the occasional request but not regular requests. Not sure how this will change with a flatbed?

Don't want to compete with the GBC's of the world, we just want to increase our capability and stay focused on high quality graphics.

Go Colorado!

White is a waste. Never use it. And times you do, you can always just flood it with white. White ink is more expensive, and most of the time when not used can ruin your lines if the machine doesn't have a cycle. not worth the 8-12k upgrade in my opinion.

 

[10sacer]

Just sent you a long private message.

I use white all the time for some of my display customers. My CET printer is configured with 4 heads of white and CET white ink lays down nicely.

But if you don't think you will use it regularly, just partner with someone who has it and be done with it or do as Colorado says.

 

[10sacer]

I just found that CET video you referenced.

What you are seeing is multiple loads going onto a single take-up reel in the course of switching back and forth between roll to roll and rigid at a printing show. So they may print 50 feet and switch to something else, then load another roll of material and tape the lead to the same takeup reel so they don't have to keep emptying the take up roll so often.

 

[FishnSigns]

Thanks Guys. I will probably just stick with speed and quality and skip the white for now. I do like the flexibility of upgrading to white down the road with the HP or CET. Back to work so I can pay for the darn thing...

 

[Robert Gruner]

Interesting comments from all. It is also nice to see you are doing due dilligence. The investment is quite large and you need to be comfortable that whatever you purchase will do your job and that whoever sells it to you will be around to fix it when it is down!

If you expect to print a large volume of cut sheet media, I like the advantage that belt-fed printers offer from a production standpoint. I believe the HP/Scitex FB500 and FB700rate among the best.

If your application is mostly 4x8 sheets, then perhaps a traditional 4x8 flatbed like the Oce might be the best solution.

You will enjoy the HP Demo in Atlanta. It is first class and the demo. Ask the demo operator to specifically outline the advantages of the HP solution versus the specific competitive units you are considering.

I expect your Oce demo will be similar; and, I would ask their demo operator to point out the advantages of their printer over the HP solution.

There are reasons why HP/Scitex and Oce are amongst your choices. Both companies are large and not going away. I suspect those two companies alone control 60-70% of the market for UV flatbeds in their price range. I'm not real sure where CET fits here? Maybe HP and or Oce can tell you.

What ever you decide upon, I wish you good printing.

Bob Gruner

 

[10sacer]

Be very careful throwing in the size of the company as a gating item to decide what to buy. The landscape is littered with the carcasses of some rather large companies that said they were here for the long term and faded away after about 5 years. We were DuPont and were by far bigger than any other company in wide format and we were gone after 3 years. Gerber is gone, Gandi is gone (well, round 2 is gone).

If it were me - I would base my decision on making the assumption that whoever you bought from would be vacant in 5 years and how comfortable you would be with the ability to operate and maintain that piece of equipment on your own. (That's extreme - but you see what I mean).

Its a nice sales feature to say how many machines you have out in the field and look how big we are... but in the grand scheme of things - the only machine that matters is the one YOU pay for.

 

[Gino]

We have a Dilli Neo Titan 1606 which is the original Agfa before they painted them red and grey to bring them into the USA. We love ours. It's a high production machine.... anyway for our needs. Most days it is going between 8 and 12 hours a day. Once in a while it will sit idle, because if we're getting backed up in ripping or some other things, there's no sense in turning the machine on to run only an hour or two. that's hard on the machine. lights, the lines and everything else, so we'll save it for the next day. We were recently looking into a second flatbed and got very serious about the CET. The project fell through, so we no longer needed it, but it still remains probably our next purchase for a flatbed.
As for white.... unless you're gonna use t almost everyday, it's a waste and a possible problem area, since most agitators don't work that well.

 

[FishnSigns]

Points well made. It sounds like the CET printers are easy to work on and they encourage you to do so. The Agfa printers look nice but they seem a little slow for the $$. I like the idea of asking the demo room to illustrate the pros/cons of their printer vs. printer X.

I'm sure the biggest challenge with a Gerber/Gandi/DuPont printer is getting ink after the fact but that's where aftermarket ink manufacturers come in (we hope!).

 

[10sacer]

I doubt if the demo room guys will be able to answer the comparison questions. That is more of a salesperson's expertise - well, it should be, anyway.

Demo guys are just concerned with telling/showing you what their machine can do and can do for you.

They don't have time to research and compare all the other machines out there.

 

[FishnSigns]

Had a great trip to the HP demo facility last week. They have an amazing place there in Atlanta. The guys really know their stuff. The FB500 & FB700 were impressive! I'm having a hard time justifying the additional $42K going from the FB500 to the FB700. It would be nice to print up to 98" wide but I'm not sure it's worth $1000/month in lease payments.

I will be in Chicago looking at the Oce printers next week. It will be nice to see some true flatbeds in action.

Hope to make a decision in the next week or two.

 

[Jack Knight1979]

Keep us posted on Oce. I'm very interested in the 318, but the speed worries me.

I love that it's a true flatbed, but the FB's seem awesome.

 

[FishnSigns]

We will be looking at the 318. I agree... it does seem a little slow. We will also be looking at the 360 and 550. I will keep you posted.

 

[FishnSigns]

Here are a couple photos from the HP demo center. First class facility.

 

[neil_se]

I just made the decision between the Oce 360GT and HP FB500. Both are approximately the same price point here in Aus, other options within the same price point were Techwin and maybe Jetrix, but we favoured the larger brands with multiple vendors and factory support. Here's some of my comparison points if you're interested:

Quality: Slightly better on the Oce due to the Variodot technology. Both are acceptable for our usage (mainly corflute and ACP outdoor signs) as we will have Solvent and Latex for HQ prints
Speed: Similar between machines, and quality at full speed is acceptable on both.
Adhesion: Similar on each with latest gen inks
Print size: HP 5x10' sheet size vs Oce 4x8'
Roll-to-Roll size: Not important for our usage. 2.2m on the Oce vs 1.6m on the HP
White ink: Not important for our usage. Good system on the Oce, HP sacrifices lm & lc with high changeover ink usage.
Ink usage: 40-50% less ml/m2 with Oce
Ink costs: 30% cheaper with HP
Lamp life: 1200-1500 hours on each (actual life, not factory quoted)
Lamp cost: 50% cheaper with HP
Head cost: 45% cheaper with HP
Cleaning: Automatic daily on the HP with manual weekly. Manual daily on the Oce (but very quick procedure anyway).
Size registration: Manual size and thickness on the Oce, Automatic on the HP
Controller: Dell PC included with the Oce, touchscreen on the HP
Machine dimensions: Larger footprint with the HP (see site preparation guides)
Warranty: 1 year Oce, 2 years HP (I believe it might only be 1 year in the US).

I was very pleased with the Oce but we proceeded with the HP FB500 in the end which won with larger print dimensions, automatic functioning, continuous workflow capabilities, and lower negotiated price.

 

[FishnSigns]

Hello Neil,

Thank you for the detailed reply. Some great info and comparisons between the HP and Oce lines. I will be in Chicago later today looking at Oce.

Hope your new printer is running and making you $$ today!