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Hi from San Diego

W

Wade

New Member
Hi, my name is Wade and I am Sign/Graphic Designer from Northern San Diego. I've been doing design for almost 6 years and signs for a little over 2 years. I've worked at 3 sign shops in the last few years and I've seen what a good independent sign designer around here can make so I am thinking about giving it a go myself. I plan to do the sales and design and I'll coordinate with some of the shops I've worked with or some good wholesalers and installers to get the rest done. I've been fortunate enough to work with some relatively high profile sign shops and have worked with national and international clients. I have laid out sign packages for Navy Federals all over the world, I have worked on the interior and exterior signage at Pirch New Jersey, Atlanta and Dallas, and I've done countless restaurants, commercial, retail and housing projects throughout Southern California. I have learned a tremendous amount about all aspects of the industry but feel I have still barely scratched the surface. I know how to do what I do but sometimes don't know why it's done the way it is and I hope that I can learn some of that here so I am able to do things correctly on my own. I'm also looking forward to sharing any of the insight or knowledge I may have, maybe I can help prevent a headache or two.

Thanks
 
T

The Hobbyist

New Member
Hi Wade,

I am a 57-year-old former southern Californian of 40 years who now lives in Free America (Kentucky). You should do well in that area, as long as you can make signs without water!

I lived in Oceanside and Vista, as well as many other places. It is a fantastic area for motorcycle riding, but I just had to get out of there. SoCal was driving me crazy. :banghead:

Now I am retired and living on 2.5 "Green Acres" of land with two shops, one for metalwork, the other for "not metalwork." I come back to visit the inmates (my friends who still live there) once in a while, but I will never return to live there.

I wish you the best of luck with your sign business!
 
Westcoast Sign Guy

Westcoast Sign Guy

New Member
Welcome to the board neighbor, and I share your enthusiasm for the trade.

In reading what you're looking to do, and in almost a similar startup many moons ago I thought I would chime in with a few words of advice.

If your intent is to execute a contract directly with a client for "fab & install" where you "subcontract" the installation to a licensed contractor, you're in deep doo doo with the state of California as like in most states that have contractors licensing laws.

Should the state find out by a competitor, or if a mistake is made by you or the contractor that was hired for the install, the consumer affairs board who is the enforcement team for the state will find you and arrest you (put you in cuffs), trust me I know. You'll find yourself in court and the charges will be either "posing" as a licensed contractor, or soliciting and performing without a license, depending on how you executed and worded your contract. The charges are very serious and the result will be jail time if you yourself do not qualify for your own contractors license, and it comes with a coupe thousands dollars in fines, the contractor who you hired will be fined and could risk loosing their license for being hired by a "unlicensed contractor". The customer also no longer owes you money, and or you will need to back pay.

I know it sounds like what you're doing is legal, selling a job and hiring a legal licensed contractor to install or finish the job (I did too) but it's not. The reason why it's not is because your breaking the chain of accountability and responsibility as a illegal contractor to CA has as remedies for all parties involved in case something goes wrong, that includes the "Primary licensed contractor, subcontractor, and most of all the "consumer".

The easiest way and less headache part to get around this is qualify and obtain your own license, or work with a company that might give you some freedom of allowing their name to be on the contract that is executed with the client. Or, sell the client the sign and give them a short list of installers that they themselves contact with directly to install.

Sorry to be a downer if that was your intent or maybe it wasn't, but at least you heard it before you find yourself in a bind, and trust me "ignorance of the law" is not an excuse when you're in front of a judge. He was ready to hand me jail time unless I was able to get my own license "which I did".

Best to you on your new exciting adventure!
 
Moze

Moze

Active Member
I'm curious - on the Pirch signs, is that just how the font is supposed to be - where the 'S' looks upside down?
 

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W

Wade

New Member
Moze said:
I'm curious - on the Pirch signs, is that just how the font is supposed to be - where the 'S' looks upside down?
Click to expand...

That's funny, I'm pretty sure its supposed to look like that even though it does look kind of odd. They use this font called Locator which is a little weird and it doesn't help that it's vertical up the wall. Didn't you install some of these signs in Dallas?
 
Moze

Moze

Active Member
Yeah, the 'S' looks upside down...wasn't sure if that was an install thing or a font thing.

And yeah, I've done a bunch of stuff there for your previous employer....excluding those letters. :)
 
W

Wade

New Member
Westcoast Sign Guy said:
Welcome to the board neighbor, and I share your enthusiasm for the trade.

In reading what you're looking to do, and in almost a similar startup many moons ago I thought I would chime in with a few words of advice.

If your intent is to execute a contract directly with a client for "fab & install" where you "subcontract" the installation to a licensed contractor, you're in deep doo doo with the state of California as like in most states that have contractors licensing laws.

Should the state find out by a competitor, or if a mistake is made by you or the contractor that was hired for the install, the consumer affairs board who is the enforcement team for the state will find you and arrest you (put you in cuffs), trust me I know. You'll find yourself in court and the charges will be either "posing" as a licensed contractor, or soliciting and performing without a license, depending on how you executed and worded your contract. The charges are very serious and the result will be jail time if you yourself do not qualify for your own contractors license, and it comes with a coupe thousands dollars in fines, the contractor who you hired will be fined and could risk loosing their license for being hired by a "unlicensed contractor". The customer also no longer owes you money, and or you will need to back pay.

I know it sounds like what you're doing is legal, selling a job and hiring a legal licensed contractor to install or finish the job (I did too) but it's not. The reason why it's not is because your breaking the chain of accountability and responsibility as a illegal contractor to CA has as remedies for all parties involved in case something goes wrong, that includes the "Primary licensed contractor, subcontractor, and most of all the "consumer".

The easiest way and less headache part to get around this is qualify and obtain your own license, or work with a company that might give you some freedom of allowing their name to be on the contract that is executed with the client. Or, sell the client the sign and give them a short list of installers that they themselves contact with directly to install.

Sorry to be a downer if that was your intent or maybe it wasn't, but at least you heard it before you find yourself in a bind, and trust me "ignorance of the law" is not an excuse when you're in front of a judge. He was ready to hand me jail time unless I was able to get my own license "which I did".

Best to you on your new exciting adventure!
Click to expand...

I greatly appreciate the advice, my goal is to not get arrested haha. I don't intend to actual fabricate anything though, I will really just be surveying, designing the package, getting the customer to sign off and then coordinating with a shop in the area to get the signs fabricated and installed to complete the project. I'm not entirely sure if I am able to get the permits or if I will have to get the shop to get those also. If I am not physically making anything am I still at risk? I have worked on a few jobs where a design firm will send us their renderings and its my job to make the shop drawings and as builts for fabrication and we finish the project from there with the approval of the original designer. My goal is really to streamline the design/sales process, I find playing the telephone game with clients, salespeople and project managers can sometimes lead to a lot of revisions and time wasted, the few times I have worked directly with the client I have found it easier to understand what they are looking for and am able to get the designs to them and the approval quicker as the revisions come straight to me I am able to revise and send it back. I will also be able to make all the fabrication files and print files hopefully lowering my cost for getting the signs fabricated. I'm hoping this is something I am able to do legally with out too much red tape but I'm willing to do it the hard way if I have to in order to save myself down the road.
 
Rick

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Wade said:
Hi, my name is Wade and I am Sign/Graphic Designer from Northern San Diego. I've been doing design for almost 6 years and signs for a little over 2 years. I've worked at 3 sign shops in the last few years and I've seen what a good independent sign designer around here can make so I am thinking about giving it a go myself. I plan to do the sales and design and I'll coordinate with some of the shops I've worked with or some good wholesalers and installers to get the rest done. I've been fortunate enough to work with some relatively high profile sign shops and have worked with national and international clients. I have laid out sign packages for Navy Federals all over the world, I have worked on the interior and exterior signage at Pirch New Jersey, Atlanta and Dallas, and I've done countless restaurants, commercial, retail and housing projects throughout Southern California. I have learned a tremendous amount about all aspects of the industry but feel I have still barely scratched the surface. I know how to do what I do but sometimes don't know why it's done the way it is and I hope that I can learn some of that here so I am able to do things correctly on my own. I'm also looking forward to sharing any of the insight or knowledge I may have, maybe I can help prevent a headache or two.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Welcome to Signs101...

3 shops in two years... yikes! That's a lot of bouncing around (okay I did it too) I'm assuming they are architectural sign shops, I can probably name 5 in the North County area that would be great on a resume. Pretty sure I know where you work... not a bad gig. Why not stay a while and learn more of the process or work at an environmental graphic design firm (RSM Design is close) and earn your chops there... get some project management experience so you can get a contractors license or at least understand how the process works from the other side. The other thing is, do you have a legitimate portfolio you can use... in California, your job is a work for hire situation and can not use your portfolio to get your own work without permission.

As Westcoast has already said, contracting, even as a broker or designer>wholesale>installer is not legally possible without a contractors license. A lot of the work you describe usually uses a general contractor who would go to you as the point person (subcontractor), it's doubtful that want to do business in the 100-200k range without all the proper bonding, insurance, and resources that would require you to carry a bulk of the job till it's done if you are managing the project.

We are an independent and freelance design firm and we represent sign companies, (design/bid) or go directly to the developer/architect/owner, design the job, then send it out to bid (design/bid/build) Then the client deals with the sign company. There are 2 of us, both of us have design firm experience, I have worked at a few sign shops and EGD firms. If you don't know, many apartments and even some shopping centers are designed for free by sign shops to get the job, the high end projects often pit signshops against each other on the best design. The rest hire designers... we have encountered all three and get paid even if the shop we represent does not... let me tell you, until you get a few signshop clients and large jobs under your own belt, it's hard getting 20-30k to design a housing project worth 200k. Screw up a large job and it's hard to recover from it. Most of the work we get is code related and we do a lot of hand holding about code related signage... we have to know the answers or know where to get them. I'm thinking your a talented designer otherwise you wouldn't have the job you have, but jumping to an independent designer/sales... it's easy to find the work, I have resources up the wazoo, but the time we take developing these relationships can take years before anything comes out of it.
 
W

Wade

New Member
Rick said:
Welcome to Signs101...

3 shops in two years... yikes! That's a lot of bouncing around (okay I did it too) I'm assuming they are architectural sign shops, I can probably name 5 in the North County area that would be great on a resume. Pretty sure I know where you work... not a bad gig. Why not stay a while and learn more of the process or work at an environmental graphic design firm (RSM Design is close) and earn your chops there... get some project management experience so you can get a contractors license or at least understand how the process works from the other side. The other thing is, do you have a legitimate portfolio you can use... in California, your job is a work for hire situation and can not use your portfolio to get your own work without permission.

As Westcoast has already said, contracting, even as a broker or designer>wholesale>installer is not legally possible without a contractors license. A lot of the work you describe usually uses a general contractor who would go to you as the point person (subcontractor), it's doubtful that want to do business in the 100-200k range without all the proper bonding, insurance, and resources that would require you to carry a bulk of the job till it's done if you are managing the project.

We are an independent and freelance design firm and we represent sign companies, (design/bid) or go directly to the developer/architect/owner, design the job, then send it out to bid (design/bid/build) Then the client deals with the sign company. There are 2 of us, both of us have design firm experience, I have worked at a few sign shops and EGD firms. If you don't know, many apartments and even some shopping centers are designed for free by sign shops to get the job, the high end projects often pit signshops against each other on the best design. The rest hire designers... we have encountered all three and get paid even if the shop we represent does not... let me tell you, until you get a few signshop clients and large jobs under your own belt, it's hard getting 20-30k to design a housing project worth 200k. Screw up a large job and it's hard to recover from it. Most of the work we get is code related and we do a lot of hand holding about code related signage... we have to know the answers or know where to get them. I'm thinking your a talented designer otherwise you wouldn't have the job you have, but jumping to an independent designer/sales... it's easy to find the work, I have resources up the wazoo, but the time we take developing these relationships can take years before anything comes out of it.
Click to expand...

So I guess I'll stick where I am for now or just freelance graphic design. I have permission to use any of the designs that I have made as long as I remove the companies information so that isn't a problem. I was looking into the contractors license and it looks like I've got to work for at least 4 years in the field I would like to be licensed in. I haven't done extensive research but I imagine designing in that field probably doesn't qualify for that requirement. As far as working for someone like RSM that would be a dream, unfortunately I didn't go to college and don't have a degree so I have never been so much as considered for a position in a real design firm. I also feel like what you do and what I want to do are basically the same. I just want to design the sign and then have the client and someone else or some other company take it from there using my designs, I don't want to build or install anything. Maybe I'm just not getting it though, as I see it I'm not altering any buildings, I'm drawing pictures of ways that other people could alter buildings. Otherwise I guess I am stuck as far as freelance sign designing is concerned. At least until I am able to get a contractors license, which seems like its not happening anytime soon. Besides any of that I also have no idea where to even start looking for this kind of work. Everything about this goal is starting to feel unrealistic but I'm not going to give up. Thank you for your reply, it's hard to find any information about this specific topic and it's nice to have some guidance as to what I need to do next.
 
Rick

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Wade said:
So I guess I'll stick where I am for now or just freelance graphic design. I have permission to use any of the designs that I have made as long as I remove the companies information so that isn't a problem. I was looking into the contractors license and it looks like I've got to work for at least 4 years in the field I would like to be licensed in. I haven't done extensive research but I imagine designing in that field probably doesn't qualify for that requirement. As far as working for someone like RSM that would be a dream, unfortunately I didn't go to college and don't have a degree so I have never been so much as considered for a position in a real design firm. I also feel like what you do and what I want to do are basically the same. I just want to design the sign and then have the client and someone else or some other company take it from there using my designs, I don't want to build or install anything. Maybe I'm just not getting it though, as I see it I'm not altering any buildings, I'm drawing pictures of ways that other people could alter buildings. Otherwise I guess I am stuck as far as freelance sign designing is concerned. At least until I am able to get a contractors license, which seems like its not happening anytime soon. Besides any of that I also have no idea where to even start looking for this kind of work. Everything about this goal is starting to feel unrealistic but I'm not going to give up. Thank you for your reply, it's hard to find any information about this specific topic and it's nice to have some guidance as to what I need to do next.
Click to expand...

On not being able to work at a place like RSM because you have no degree... I say Phooey! If you are very good, a degree means squat... (notice how I say very good) Though I think a degree is important, it really depends on the school... Art Center, Otis, CalArts are premier art schools in SoCal, most new designers go to McDesign schools and learn the tools. That means nothing to most design firms. You have to know the design process, you have to understand environmental graphics, you have to know how a sign is put together, you have to have the ability to think conceptually... and a killer portfolio... Okay you need to know the tools too... If you are good, and have these skills... APPLY! I have no degree and I got to work at some great places, even worked at my dream job. I've never let that stop me. Now my resume is full enough that no degree means very little.

On the contractors license.... project management counts as experience. But the big thing right now is... you can design the signs, you just can't make the fabrication and installation contract with the client... I know that means you don't get a percentage, but you can get paid to project manage or at the very least make sure the design intent is carried out.

If I were you I would get a website up, portfolio and collateral, and start your freelance business geared toward your work. Keep your eye on ads anywhere, Signweb, SEGD job listings, Dodge Reports, we even got a client from Craigslist... partner with a smaller shop, know what's being built around you, find out who the general contractor is, the developer, architect, and sent them something... there are usually websites of major projects being built in your local area. Contact them, send a letter of qualification/portfolio, develop your contract https://segd.org/event/2015-contracts-101 ... look up wayfinding projects on google, we just saw one that was looking for proposals close to us. We have done this and have more information than we can handle. San Diego, OC and LA is booming right now, oh and Join SEGD... these suggestions takes a lot of time, but done right, you can get design work... IF... you are good and easy to work with.
 
W

Wade

New Member
Rick said:
On not being able to work at a place like RSM because you have no degree... I say Phooey! If you are very good, a degree means squat... (notice how I say very good) Though I think a degree is important, it really depends on the school... Art Center, Otis, CalArts are premier art schools in SoCal, most new designers go to McDesign schools and learn the tools. That means nothing to most design firms. You have to know the design process, you have to understand environmental graphics, you have to know how a sign is put together, you have to have the ability to think conceptually... and a killer portfolio... Okay you need to know the tools too... If you are good, and have these skills... APPLY! I have no degree and I got to work at some great places, even worked at my dream job. I've never let that stop me. Now my resume is full enough that no degree means very little.

On the contractors license.... project management counts as experience. But the big thing right now is... you can design the signs, you just can't make the fabrication and installation contract with the client... I know that means you don't get a percentage, but you can get paid to project manage or at the very least make sure the design intent is carried out.

If I were you I would get a website up, portfolio and collateral, and start your freelance business geared toward your work. Keep your eye on ads anywhere, Signweb, SEGD job listings, Dodge Reports, we even got a client from Craigslist... partner with a smaller shop, know what's being built around you, find out who the general contractor is, the developer, architect, and sent them something... there are usually websites of major projects being built in your local area. Contact them, send a letter of qualification/portfolio, develop your contract https://segd.org/event/2015-contracts-101 ... look up wayfinding projects on google, we just saw one that was looking for proposals close to us. We have done this and have more information than we can handle. San Diego, OC and LA is booming right now, oh and Join SEGD... these suggestions takes a lot of time, but done right, you can get design work... IF... you are good and easy to work with.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much, this answers my question perfectly and then some. I will look into all of these and yes I definitely need a website and a better portfolio. You've been immensely helpful and motivational, thank you for the tips and info, I'm very grateful.
 
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