Kala mistral 1650 heat settings

[bigben]

So I have a kala mistral 1650 with heat option. On my training, the rep told me to set every lamination to 113F. It worked great for a while. But now, with a new kind of laminating film (in-house brand from a supplier) my final job curl on the inside after the lamination (print side). The rep of the material, that work in the same shop who sold me the kala, told me to lower the temperature to 104F or even lower, that is the culprit of the curling problem.

My question: Is it possible the heat will provoque the curl? I imagine the heat stretch the laminate and shrink when it cool down. My tension in set to minimum by the way. Also, what would be the starting point of heat settings. Is it 113F like in my formation or lower than that?

Thank you.

Ben

 

[White Haus]

Is the new laminate you're having issues with a cast laminate?

To answer your question, too much heat and/or tension can provoke it to curl, yes.

Is there a reason you're using heat? Are you laminating UV prints? If not, technically heat is not required. It helps with silvering but 113F sounds like a bit too much to me. Try below 100F and see if it helps.

 

[SightLine]

We have never used heat on a laminator in over 20 years here but it depends on what you are printing with. For just solvent of latex printed standard vinyl its not really needed at all. Yes any heat will cause the laminate to stretch some and cause the material to curl since the laminate is trying to shrink back.

 

[Boudica]

I don't use the heat at all with Cast vinyl/laminate. When I do use the heat (calendared vinyl - especially matte) I have it set to 94 I think. Sometimes it's on 85, Not sure what is changing it - you can set memory settings, which the tech set up years ago - but I don't fiddle with it (intentionally) - just heat on, or off.

 

[bigben]

I print with a latex printer and the vinyl/laminate are mat calendred. The heat is just for the silvering.

I will make some test with heat at a lower temperature. I think I have 3 option down (104f, 94f and 85f). And I will also try no heat at all.

Thanks for your input.

 

[MarkSnelling]

The curl is likely a result of too much tension on the laminate supply shaft. If it is hard to make the shaft spin with one hand, then you are doing it wrong. The temperature alone wouldn't cause any type of curl. You are more than welcome to call me if you want to talk it through. I'm a laminator geek.

 

[bigben]

The curl is likely a result of too much tension on the laminate supply shaft. If it is hard to make the shaft spin with one hand, then you are doing it wrong. The temperature alone wouldn't cause any type of curl. You are more than welcome to call me if you want to talk it through. I'm a laminator geek.

Thank you. I will double check my tension but I'm pretty sure at a minimum. I have no problem pulling the material when I load the laminate.

 

[MarkSnelling]

Thank you. I will double check my tension but I'm pretty sure at a minimum. I have no problem pulling the material when I load the laminate.

well call if you are still stuck. I also didn't answer your question. I tell people 120 is usually the sweet spot unless you are using an older Vutek or UV printer where you can really feel the uv ink texture...then I'd go to the max temp of 140 (if you have a Mistral).

The other thing to think about is if you are leaving a ton of release liner on the take up shaft. A lot of people do that for some reason and since the takeup and the supply shaft are on the same drive chain, that can create a lot of drag as well. I wouldn't have much more release liner than laminate on the machine at any given time.....sometimes I'll see people with hundreds of feet of release liner and they are unaware what problems it is causing.

 

[bigben]

well call if you are still stuck. I also didn't answer your question. I tell people 120 is usually the sweet spot unless you are using an older Vutek or UV printer where you can really feel the uv ink texture...then I'd go to the max temp of 140 (if you have a Mistral).

The other thing to think about is if you are leaving a ton of release liner on the take up shaft. A lot of people do that for some reason and since the takeup and the supply shaft are on the same drive chain, that can create a lot of drag as well. I wouldn't have much more release liner than laminate on the machine at any given time.....sometimes I'll see people with hundreds of feet of release liner and they are unaware what problems it is causing.

Thanks for the info. I only print with latex and most of my laminate is calendred. So maybe it's the reason my training guy told me to leave it at 113f.

I wasn't aware about the release liner. I'm one of those that leave a ton on the roll. I will definitely check that.

In a normal situation, does a laminated print is supposed to roll inside if left on the work table or it is supposed to be flat like unlaminated?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[JBurton]

The other thing to think about is if you are leaving a ton of release liner on the take up shaft. A lot of people do that for some reason

For me, laziness. Handling all that slick paper is a pain, so I like to make sure I'm unloading about 1,000' worth so it's extra painful...
But, then again, not a mistral, mine has a wood core and steel tensioner that slip against one another.

 

[Boudica]

Interesting that leaving the liner on the takeup is a thing. I start fresh every time I laminate.

 

[MarkSnelling]

For me, laziness. Handling all that slick paper is a pain, so I like to make sure I'm unloading about 1,000' worth so it's extra painful...
But, then again, not a mistral, mine has a wood core and steel tensioner that slip against one another.

I get it. But on a lot of laminators - especially with pvc laminates, when the takeup core gets so large it is pulling faster than the roller creating tension issues. On old-school laminators where the takeup is on a clutch it doesn't matter....but on the less expensive laminators it can create all sorts of little issues when usually leads to operators making unneccessary adjustments (tension/pressure). But if it isn't broke, don't fix it!

 

[MarkSnelling]

Thanks for the info. I only print with latex and most of my laminate is calendred. So maybe it's the reason my training guy told me to leave it at 113f.

I wasn't aware about the release liner. I'm one of those that leave a ton on the roll. I will definitely check that.

In a normal situation, does a laminated print is supposed to roll inside if left on the work table or it is supposed to be flat like unlaminated?

Thanks again for your help.

If the print doesn't lay flat on a table then you absolutely have a tension issue. I've typed this before....imagine if you had a rubber band and cut it....so now it is a rubber string. If you were to stretch that string and stick it to a print and then let go, the rubber band would want to go back to its original state....which would cause a big curl. The same is true when you apply tension to the laminate as it comes over the roller on the laminator. LESS IS MORE. You should have little tension - if any at all....same is true with pressure. On a Kala you just need the first light to turn on. I'm always happy to talk laminating, so call anytime.

 

[bigben]

If the print doesn't lay flat on a table then you absolutely have a tension issue. I've typed this before....imagine if you had a rubber band and cut it....so now it is a rubber string. If you were to stretch that string and stick it to a print and then let go, the rubber band would want to go back to its original state....which would cause a big curl. The same is true when you apply tension to the laminate as it comes over the roller on the laminator. LESS IS MORE. You should have little tension - if any at all....same is true with pressure. On a Kala you just need the first light to turn on. I'm always happy to talk laminating, so call anytime.

So my tension on the laminate was at minimum but the tension on my print was at maximum. So it could be the culprit.

You're telling me, my temperature should be at 140f and the pressure only at 1 on a kala mistral 1650 for a calendared laminate/vinyl printed with a latex printer ? In my training I was told that all laminate should be at maximum (5). When I do premask, I set it at 4 (no heat). With my tension at minimum I still have some good tension when I pull on the laminate film.

I really appreciate your help and input on the subject.

 

[XtremeXccessories]

In my training I was told that all laminate should be at maximum (5).

The guy that trained us on our Mistral said we don't need to use more than two pressure for almost all laminate.

 

[Boudica]

I always set ours to 3 - first orange bar.

 

[JBurton]

Ok, I'm starting to see the rough side of this Kala Mistral, mostly that the training for techs to then train end users is incredibly inconsistent.
This is a pretty good indication of a fool proof machine, as I've heard nothing but positives on this thing, and you guys are running it all sorts of different ways with acceptable results.

 

[MarkSnelling]

So my tension on the laminate was at minimum but the tension on my print was at maximum. So it could be the culprit.

You're telling me, my temperature should be at 140f and the pressure only at 1 on a kala mistral 1650 for a calendared laminate/vinyl printed with a latex printer ? In my training I was told that all laminate should be at maximum (5). When I do premask, I set it at 4 (no heat). With my tension at minimum I still have some good tension when I pull on the laminate film.

I really appreciate your help and input on the subject.

LESS IS MORE....less tension, less pressure, less overthinking.

The more pressure you apply, the more the middle of the roller will 'deflect' or bow up. This is particularly important when mounting or laminating onto a rigid substrate. With too much pressure you'll start to see inconsistencies down the middle of the print (air bubbles/silvering). Most people have the natural reaction to apply more pressure thinking that will help with the silvering....but it makes it worse because you are bowing the roller even more. By reducing pressure, you actually increase the pressure down the middle.

As for the temperature...if you have an older UV printer, run it closer to 140 since the texture of those larger UV drops of ink really play in the laminating process. Most of the newer printers fire a much smaller dot and it isn't as much of an issue. 120 is always a good number. If you see small air gaps along the tail edge of ink, then try increasing the temperature to make the adhesive as soft as possible.

Good luck! As always, you are more than welcome to call to chat about it.

 

[MarkSnelling]

So my tension on the laminate was at minimum but the tension on my print was at maximum. So it could be the culprit.

You're telling me, my temperature should be at 140f and the pressure only at 1 on a kala mistral 1650 for a calendared laminate/vinyl printed with a latex printer ? In my training I was told that all laminate should be at maximum (5). When I do premask, I set it at 4 (no heat). With my tension at minimum I still have some good tension when I pull on the laminate film.

I really appreciate your help and input on the subject.

LESS IS MORE....less tension, less pressure, less overthinking.

The more pressure you apply, the more the middle of the roller will 'deflect' or bow up. This is particularly important when mounting or laminating onto a rigid substrate. With too much pressure you'll start to see inconsistencies down the middle of the print (air bubbles/silvering). Most people have the natural reaction to apply more pressure thinking that will help with the silvering....but it makes it worse because you are bowing the roller even more. By reducing pressure, you actually increase the pressure down the middle.

As for the temperature...if you have an older UV printer, run it closer to 140 since the texture of those larger UV drops of ink really play in the laminating process. Most of the newer printers fire a much smaller dot and it isn't as much of an issue. 120 is always a good number. If you see small air gaps along the tail edge of ink, then try increasing the temperature to make the adhesive as soft as possible.

Good luck! As always, you are more than welcome to call to chat about it.

 

[MarkSnelling]

So my tension on the laminate was at minimum but the tension on my print was at maximum. So it could be the culprit.

You're telling me, my temperature should be at 140f and the pressure only at 1 on a kala mistral 1650 for a calendared laminate/vinyl printed with a latex printer ? In my training I was told that all laminate should be at maximum (5). When I do premask, I set it at 4 (no heat). With my tension at minimum I still have some good tension when I pull on the laminate film.

I really appreciate your help and input on the subject.

LESS IS MORE....less tension, less pressure, less overthinking.

The more pressure you apply, the more the middle of the roller will 'deflect' or bow up. This is particularly important when mounting or laminating onto a rigid substrate. With too much pressure you'll start to see inconsistencies down the middle of the print (air bubbles/silvering). Most people have the natural reaction to apply more pressure thinking that will help with the silvering....but it makes it worse because you are bowing the roller even more. By reducing pressure, you actually increase the pressure down the middle.

As for the temperature...if you have an older UV printer, run it closer to 140 since the texture of those larger UV drops of ink really play in the laminating process. Most of the newer printers fire a much smaller dot and it isn't as much of an issue. 120 is always a good number. If you see small air gaps along the tail edge of ink, then try increasing the temperature to make the adhesive as soft as possible.

Good luck! As always, you are more than welcome to call to chat about it.