Newbie needs help

[signnewbie]

Hi,
I would like to share my problem with the network. We designed and printed a wrap for a box truck. Being newbies this was our first. We used Avery 1005 ez rs. Following the advice of a sign pro I met at the AC show (due to the amount of rivets) we used ClearShield liquid laminate instead of Avery"s over- laminate. We took an installer with high recommendation from a fellow SignBizzer here in NJ to install. The install date was Dec 23 2009, at that time the coldest day of this winter. The install was started indoors in a large warehouse but even with the gas heater, I think we were only in the mid 50's at best. The installer stopped after two panels and said he feels the vinyl is bad. There is almost no tackiness to it. He showed me how much tackier the masking tape is. Even warming the surface alot with the heat gun didn't help. I got the Avery rep to my shop 12/24 who claimed that the seemingly lack of tackiness is fine but is willing to test(both printed & unprinted) samples. To date I have not gotten a definitive response from him on any tests done. They were closed thru 01/04 etc. He is very quick to blame installer 1)not familiar with ez-rs 2) Did not use pre-mask. He will recommend other installer. The installer faults the vinyl. The customer is getting impatient & so are we.
My questions to you guys is: Was it 1) the cold? 2) could the ClearShield laminate (rollered on) have affected the adhesive? 3) lack of pre-mask (I don't understand how that affects tackiness?) 4)? any other suggestions?
I also would appreciate input how to light a fire under Avery at least to get some test results.



Thank you,




Sholom Hochman
Sign Here

 

[Gino]

Welcome from PA............................

Lots to think about there.

 

[Mikeifg]

Wow.... Never liquid laminate anything going on a vehicle. In fact never liquid lam at all....Was the truck prepped properly? And also AVERY?

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i'm literally shaking my head as i read your post...

there are MANY issues here...including lack of an introduction/common courtesy in my opinion when you are hoping that we will all share our hard earned experience/knowledge with you.

 

[chicagoprinting]

Hi,
I would like to share my problem with the network. We designed and printed a wrap for a box truck. Being newbies this was our first. We used Avery 1005 ez rs. Following the advice of a sign pro I met at the AC show (due to the amount of rivets) we used ClearShield liquid laminate instead of Avery"s over- laminate. We took an installer with high recommendation from a fellow SignBizzer here in NJ to install. The install date was Dec 23 2009, at that time the coldest day of this winter. The install was started indoors in a large warehouse but even with the gas heater, I think we were only in the mid 50's at best. The installer stopped after two panels and said he feels the vinyl is bad. There is almost no tackiness to it. He showed me how much tackier the masking tape is. Even warming the surface alot with the heat gun didn't help. I got the Avery rep to my shop 12/24 who claimed that the seemingly lack of tackiness is fine but is willing to test(both printed & unprinted) samples. To date I have not gotten a definitive response from him on any tests done. They were closed thru 01/04 etc. He is very quick to blame installer 1)not familiar with ez-rs 2) Did not use pre-mask. He will recommend other installer. The installer faults the vinyl. The customer is getting impatient & so are we.
My questions to you guys is: Was it 1) the cold? 2) could the ClearShield laminate (rollered on) have affected the adhesive? 3) lack of pre-mask (I don't understand how that affects tackiness?) 4)? any other suggestions?
I also would appreciate input how to light a fire under Avery at least to get some test results.



Thank you,




Sholom Hochman
Sign Here

The temperature is an issue most of the times, but if is at least 50 should be ok if the surface of the vehicle has enough tack. From my experience, I noticed that in many cases, the paint on the cube trucks has a powdery/dusted feel. This paint is soluble in the cleaning liquids used to clean the vehicle alchool, 3M prep, etc. The key to a good wrap is to clean the surface very good, but the paint used on older cube trucks will still not have a good adhesion after a good cleaning because after it gets dry will still have that powder on top of it (you will notice white dust on your rag, if the paint is white, all the time you wash/whipe the surface with a cleaning agent). One solution to this problem is to use one vinyl with better adhesion like Oracal 3951 RA or Solvex CarWrap AE, even Oracal 3551 RA will work for a flat surface (the rivets will be wrapped good enough for a good overall aspect) and try to do the wrap in a smaller garage which can be heated better or rent an extra heater from Home Depot.

Tom

 

[Pat Whatley]

Problem 1: Not introducing yourself.
Problem 2: AVERY VINYL who will deny any responsibility at all, even after faced with proof that it is their fault.


Let him recommend another installer. If that installer can install it then you know it's not the vinyl. The the Avery recommended guy can't install it you'll have a damn good argument that it's the vinyl. Good luck with ever seeing a dime for it.

 

[zapblam]

We often install bus wraps in a transit holding warehouse that gets at most 50 farenheit. Often dipping well below 30 when all the route busses are entering and leaving. 3M vinyl. Never had a failure yet. Slap it all on and a little post heating and call it a day. You just cant snap the vinyl as aggresively as usual when repositioning.

However below 20 the vinyl cracks just from unrolling it. Usually warm the rolls on the dash of the workvan over the defroster.

 

[signnewbie]

Hi,
Sorry, sorry, I guess a major apology is in order here for my lack of proper etiquete. It really was unexcusable.We will try to rectify that now with a proper introduction.
My name is Sholom Hochman and I am originaly from Brooklyn NY. I owned and operated for many years a old fashioned style Hardware store. You know the ones a fraction of the size of the big box ones that killed the mom & pop ones, yet you almost always found what you needed.
In 2001 I relocated my family to Lakewood NJ and for the next four years commuted the 120 miles round trip daily. Then I had the bright idea of selling my business and developing condo's in Center City, Philadelphia. The real estate market tanked before I got my money out. I started looking around for a new business. I do have a little bit of a creative streak and my oldest daughter is a graphic artist. There are a few local sign shops in the area but I was not impressed with their work and felt the customer deserved much better. I first tried buying out one of the local shops but during my due diligence found it to be in to much of a mess. I then hooked up with the SignBiz network did the training & set up shop. I am still in my first few months and every day I learn more & more how little I know. I really apreciate the time you guys take to help us out in all aspects even setting us straight on common manners.
Thank you all and I will update you next week on the wrap deal.
Signnewbie Humbled

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

welcome to the forum

 

[Jim Doggett]

Hi,
Sorry, sorry, I guess a major apology is in order here for my lack of proper etiquete. It really was unexcusable.We will try to rectify that now with a proper introduction.
My name is Sholom Hochman and I am originaly from Brooklyn NY. I owned and operated for many years a old fashioned style Hardware store. You know the ones a fraction of the size of the big box ones that killed the mom & pop ones, yet you almost always found what you needed.
In 2001 I relocated my family to Lakewood NJ and for the next four years commuted the 120 miles round trip daily. Then I had the bright idea of selling my business and developing condo's in Center City, Philadelphia. The real estate market tanked before I got my money out. I started looking around for a new business. I do have a little bit of a creative streak and my oldest daughter is a graphic artist. There are a few local sign shops in the area but I was not impressed with their work and felt the customer deserved much better. I first tried buying out one of the local shops but during my due diligence found it to be in to much of a mess. I then hooked up with the SignBiz network did the training & set up shop. I am still in my first few months and every day I learn more & more how little I know. I really apreciate the time you guys take to help us out in all aspects even setting us straight on common manners.
Thank you all and I will update you next week on the wrap deal.
Signnewbie Humbled

Welcome, from sunny (but cold!) Texas.

Yeah; prep might be an issue with adhesion. But temperature is eveything with the newer high-tech wrap films. 50F is just too cold an environment; the surface temp of the vehicle and film will never get to where it should be, ideally. Your "installer" should know that.

Plus, if your film vendor does not know everything about the film properties and how to use it based on your application and environment, find a new vendor. Film technologies are evolving too quickly to buy from a box-shipper. You'll waste a lot of money and time without accurate film advice.

My $0.02,

Jim

 

[Mikeifg]

SIGNBIZ NETWORK Now that explains it all.....You should have worked in the Industry first...Maybee for the shops whose work you weren't impressed with. You'll get great advise here but you haven't paid your dues yet. And welcome to Signs 101.

 

[ykaldes]

Where is SignBiz Network? Why not asking them?

 

[knlgrafx]

Yes your temperature should never be below 55, I always recommend 65 or warmer. number 2 look closely at the vinyl is there a white chalk on the adhesive when you are laying the vinyl, set a piece and pull it up and look at the adhesive, you'll see the white chalk if its there. Make sure to use 91 percent alcohol 70 percent on box trucks is sometimes not enough to get that chalk. I actually use a pressure washer and a good washing solution to get all the chalk off the truck, then wipe again with alcohol. the cleaner it is the better it will stick. Take a piece of your avery and stick it to something other than the box truck and check your tackiness. Avery is very good at placing the blame on others, but the installer should have already known that, and he should have known to wash that truck super well to insure the chalk was off the truck. I can actually see where Avery would blame the installer tho. make sure hes 3m or pdaa certified. If he is not He only thinks he knows what he is doing. Being highly recommended and being certified are 2 different things. I Also advise your shop to become certified, not only will it give you all the knowledge you will need to succeed, but also most places want you to be certified to pick up good paying work.

Good luck and welcome to the industry.