Panface poly vs flat sheet

[gnubler]

Received a RFQ to replace two panface sign panels for a backlit cabinet, see pic for the existing sign. Panels are around 4ft wide x 5ft tall. Is it possible to install flat polycarb panels into a cabinet like this, or is panface required for distance from the lighting inside, and to prevent blowing out? This is a lower budget customer and was wanting to offer them a couple options.

If panface is required, where can I order two flat panface panels from? My Plan B would be to apply translucent vinyl graphics on a flat (no formed letters) panface.

 

[JBurton]

That picture there shows embossed lettering on a pan face. I'm sure someone else can recommend a manufacturer nearby you, we use Facecrafters and Commercial Plastics, both will ship.
For an alternative, I'd just price acm. Flat lexan will be cheaper, but barely overall compared to a pan face once it's all decorated and installed, but it will look like trash if lit.
A fully embossed face like this one will be about twice the cost of a 'flat' pan, but you won't have to decorate it and it will look good for ages.

 

[Gino]

How deep is the box, itself ??

 

[gnubler]

The sign is 150+ miles away, I'm waiting to hear back from the customer...I asked the height of the panface and also the surrounding margin/lip area. All I have is this picture and measurements of 45"w x 56"h. No idea how deep the box is, I'll ask.

Burton - why would Lexan look like trash? All the polycarb panels I've done for backlit cabinets are flat Lexan.
I will offer ACM if they don't care about it being lit. 3mm or 6mm ACM?

 

[Gino]

The way it's built, it looks like an old pepsi/7-up kinda setup. Usually about 4 to 4.5" wide. Nothing flat will work, unless as suggested, it is no longer used as a backlit.

If I were you, I'd decline quoting. You'll hafta physically go out and measure the sign exactly. Otherwise, if something doesn't fit properly..... it's on you for taking a customer's word for dimensions. It's up to the professional to handle things properly. While you're at it, if you do go out, look inside and see f you could retrofit LEDs in it.

 

[unclebun]

Flat faces will look like crap because the cabinet is thin, placing the faces so close to the lights that you will see hotspots from the light tubes/modules with dark areas between, rather than uniform lighting.

You would need to find a manufacturer of pan faces nearby. Shipping is cost prohibitive, but flat pan faces (without moulded lettering) are not that expensive. I have a couple of choices in my area that are close enough that common carrier shipping is typically less than $50-100 depending on size.

When you're having pan faces made it is vital to have actual measurements of the face full size, flange width, pan depth.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

The "right" answer is to survey it and replace it w/ a pan formed face.

You can do that one flat, but keep in mind that if they want it lit with florescent lamps, you'll get hotspots. And the retainer will be very thin around the face so you'll have to add more screws though the inside part of the retainer (which isn't a big deal because there are already a slew of visible fasteners along the outside.

If they want it lit, you can do LED sticks (but I assume this is getting over your head now). I just did one in a similar frame a few weeks ago. I converted it to LED and it looked fine. I think you need something like 2.5-3" between the face and the LED modules.

As far as a survey goes, price it out separately (for 150 miles away, minimum $800 or so). You could let the customer decide if they want to risk it or not. Make the panel the size of the cabinet and when you get out there, take the old panel out, lay it on top of new, trace it and run a portable jig saw around it. Just make sure when you're designing it to account for the retainer and some visual border.

This picture was taken BEFORE I noticed the corner piece missing.



And this is what happens when you forget to put fasteners along the inside frame and face... but that was a powerful storm that ended up bending the sign brackets supporting it. Happened 1 week after I did the face change, great timing

 

[JBurton]

I think you need something like 2.5-3" between the face and the LED modules.

Not even close, lots of retro offerings are going to be 6-9" from face, as they are designed to be a 1 to 1 for fluorescents (They really aren't close to the same uniformity as the classic glass tubes, uncertain if they will ever be). If you want to get into other solutions, like Posterbox modules, now you're talking some serious cash. Like gino said, this is probably 4.5 or 6" deep, plus painted embossed pans, makes it 5" from the face. It's probably got T8s on 6" or 8" centers.
Your example, I am honestly surprised it looked fine. I'm going to wager it was a white panel with a print on white translucent, which really helps cut down on light transmission, and therefore less hotspots.

Who did this mess? Why route the electrical right through the roof when you're so close to the eave? Honestly, I think this sign was doomed by the storm from the get go, you're face wouldn't have survived regardless, looks like it ripped part of the cabinet from the support. Also, some jagoff left a 1/2" eyebolt in it. Those are like $12 each...

The sign is 150+ miles away, I'm waiting to hear back from the customer...I asked the height of the panface and also the surrounding margin/lip area. All I have is this picture and measurements of 45"w x 56"h. No idea how deep the box is, I'll ask.

Burton - why would Lexan look like trash? All the polycarb panels I've done for backlit cabinets are flat Lexan.
I will offer ACM if they don't care about it being lit. 3mm or 6mm ACM?

You should be able to estimate this easily if you have the vaguest of dimensions, as long as they exceed the actual dimensions, your pan face will cost the same or marginally less when it comes to production time. I'd still include a note on the quote, company not responsible for incorrect dimensions provided by customer.
As far as lighting, everyone else is correct, except tex and his 2.5-3" from face comment. Also, a flat panel is probably only going to shave 20% off the materials cost vs a pan, whereas an acm panel could cut it by 50%, but then again with all that drive time both these percentages will be drastically reduced when compared to the whole job.
Now whether or not you want to get into this kind of work is the big question! Go rent a tow behind lift, trim some trees in your yard, generally play around with it, and see if it's something you'd like to do... with 3 people watching you, while holding something expensive.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Not even close, lots of retro offerings are going to be 6-9" from face, as they are designed to be a 1 to 1 for fluorescents (They really aren't close to the same uniformity as the classic glass tubes, uncertain if they will ever be). If you want to get into other solutions, like Posterbox modules, now you're talking some serious cash. Like gino said, this is probably 4.5 or 6" deep, plus painted embossed pans, makes it 5" from the face. It's probably got T8s on 6" or 8" centers.
Your example, I am honestly surprised it looked fine. I'm going to wager it was a white panel with a print on white translucent, which really helps cut down on light transmission, and therefore less hotspots.

Who did this mess? Why route the electrical right through the roof when you're so close to the eave? Honestly, I think this sign was doomed by the storm from the get go, you're face wouldn't have survived regardless, looks like it ripped part of the cabinet from the support. Also, some jagoff left a 1/2" eyebolt in it. Those are like $12 each...

You should be able to estimate this easily if you have the vaguest of dimensions, as long as they exceed the actual dimensions, your pan face will cost the same or marginally less when it comes to production time. I'd still include a note on the quote, company not responsible for incorrect dimensions provided by customer.
As far as lighting, everyone else is correct, except tex and his 2.5-3" from face comment. Also, a flat panel is probably only going to shave 20% off the materials cost vs a pan, whereas an acm panel could cut it by 50%, but then again with all that drive time both these percentages will be drastically reduced when compared to the whole job.
Now whether or not you want to get into this kind of work is the big question! Go rent a tow behind lift, trim some trees in your yard, generally play around with it, and see if it's something you'd like to do... with 3 people watching you, while holding something expensive.

Yea white poly with white trans. They used these thin ass steel bands to mount the sign.. it was way out of square when I came back so no wonder face popped out .. but ya know, I was the last one to touch it so all problems are mine. The owner argued that his neighbor's sign didn't get damaged...yea well, his sign is supported with square tube and not this shit, but the eastern European that runs this "Italian" restaurant barely speaks English.

 

[gnubler]

Go rent a tow behind lift, trim some trees in your yard, generally play around with it, and see if it's something you'd like to do... with 3 people watching you, while holding something expensive.

Like a frosty 6-pack of my favorite IPA beer? Done!

Any panface supplier recs around the northwest part of the country? Closest metro to me is Spokane, WA.

Thanks for all this info, much appreciated. This gives me enough fodder to throw some options to the customer. I suspect it's going to become an unlit ACM sign.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I haven't found any suppliers out west. Closest would be commercial plastics in Springfield Missouri. Might be one in Denver but I can't remember

 

[gnubler]

Flat faces will look like crap because the cabinet is thin, placing the faces so close to the lights that you will see hotspots from the light tubes/modules with dark areas between, rather than uniform lighting.

When you're having pan faces made it is vital to have actual measurements of the face full size, flange width, pan depth.

Thanks for this info. This is exactly what I was wanting to find out regarding using a panface vs flat sheet.
With a cabinet that old I bet half the bulbs are burned out anyway.

 

[unclebun]

Like a frosty 6-pack of my favorite IPA beer? Done!

Any panface supplier recs around the northwest part of the country? Closest metro to me is Spokane, WA.

Thanks for all this info, much appreciated. This gives me enough fodder to throw some options to the customer. I suspect it's going to become an unlit ACM sign.

I found my panface supplier by asking my sign supply companies. There are three all within less than 100 miles.

 

[JBurton]

Like a frosty 6-pack of my favorite IPA beer? Done!

No sh*t, there's one that I love that's around $18, if I can find it.

 

[Gettin'By]

My fave is an imperial stout, Oskar Blues' Ten Fiddy. Last I found it a couple years ago it was that much for a 4 pack. Lakewood's Temptress (imperial milk stout) is getting up there too, I think like 12/4. But man they are good...