Need Help Profiling Media In Versaworks With I1pro2

[danjuan]

Hi guys

I've been reading previous threads, googling etc etc but i'm still no further forward.

I need to profile some media, i've been using the generic profiles but i'm getting really bad results with a couple of vinyls, I always intended to make my own profiles but I need to get started sooner rather than later and as I have some free time, i thought I would start now.

To save time, hopefully I can explain what i'm doing and you can tell me what i'm doing wrong and tell me the next steps and for those who will do this, hopefully they can follow along. I will try to write a full guide once I have it perfect that could maybe get pinned?

I'm using an I1pro2, I have i1profiler and babelcolor (trial) if that helps and i'm using the latest versaworks duel. My printer is a VSi-640 and i'm running CMYKx2.

So here goes:

PART 1: VERSAWORKS

• Insert media into the printer and set bi-directional and feed adjustments correctly
• Open Versaworks and add my spectrophotometer (In this case it's Gretag Macbeth Eyeone for both options)
• Open Queue A settings and set
• Layout / Scale - 110%
• Quality / Colour Management - Density Control Only
• Mark / Print Job Properties - Quality Settings & Date/Time
• Printer Controls / Feed Settings - Printer Settings
• Printer Controls / Heater Controls / Custom Settings - Print Heater: 40º & Dryer: 50º
• Click OK
• Go to Media / Media Explorer and create a new profile
• Name it i.e. Banner and give it the Banner template
• Select the new media and click Print Quality Settings
• Go to Calibration Settings / Print Chart and make sure the limits are 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%
• Click Print chart
• Once the chart has been printed on your required media, you'll need to measure the chart, to do this I do the following

PART 2: i1PROFILER

Open i1Profiler
• Click User Mode / Advanced / Measure Chart
• Change the rows and columns to match the print out i.e. 4 rows, 21 columns and click next
• Select the measurement mode to Duel Scan and Calibrate the i1Pro2
• Read the patches
• Double click on the darkest black patch (Far right)
• Change the CIA Lab to CIA Lch
• Now go through all the black patches till you see the highest c values under M1 (most likely in the top 90% and above) and write it down i.e. Black 95%
• Do the same for cyan, magenta and yellow
Mine are as follows
Cyan: 100%
Magenta: 95%
Yellow: 95%
Black: 100%
• Save the data to your desktop as a .cmxf file


PART 3: BABELCOLOR PATCHTOOL
• Open Babelcolor (trial)
• Open your saved .cmxf file and select M1 and click proceed
• Change the rows to 4 (to match your printout)
• Take a look at the info panel, towards the bottom of the info box you should see ΔE* (Delta E)
• Now select the darkest black patch (Far right) it'll now have a white border around it
• Now hover over the previous black patches and look for a number between 1.5 and 2 under ΔE*, closer to 2 the better and make a note of the patch i.e. 85%
• Do the same for the other colours
Mine is:
Cyan: 95%
Magenta: 85%
Yellow: 85%
Black: 90%
• Write your figures down

PART 4: VERSAWORKS
• Go to your media your created in media explorer and open print quality settings
• Go to Print Chart and change the Single Color Limit to match your findings
• go to fine Tune and adjust the graph so there are no spikes and just a relatively smooth line
• Now go down to Total Ink Limit / Print Chart and Print
• Once printed, take a look at the chart and identify (by sight) when the colour is the brightest and do this for each row
• the top 3 rows has mine on red 200, green 180 and blue 160

Now on to actually profiling the colours.

So far is all this correct??? Any input???

Thanks

 

[rjssigns]

At this point I'm no help, but will watch this thread for updates. I'll be doing the same thing at some point this year.

 

[Pauly]

How hard did you search?
With every software, there's a guide on how to create an ICC profile. Onyx, Caldera, even Versaworks.
http://support.rolanddga.com/docs/d...s/manuals and guides/versaworks_profiling.pdf
That's the best guide you'll get for your software.

I dont know how good babelcolor is but i'd stick to using i1profiler software. if you don't have it. purchase it.

 

[Pauly]

Here's a video.

 

[Joe House]

The video link is great. I do it the same way. You want to set your ink channel limits, linearization and multi color limits in Versaworks, then print your profile swatches in Versaworks using the media settings you just created and linearization only for the color management preset. Create the profile with these swatches and import it back into Versaworks.
Thanks for the link Pauly

 

[danjuan]

Pauly

Thanks for the links but the roland pdf and the video miss vital steps and here's where I need help.

When you print the CMYK print chart i.e 0 - 100% the correct method is to use your spectrophotometer to find the highest Chroma (LCh values), you then need to measure the difference between the colours as mentioned in my first post. Using eyesight is incorrect.

Not saying you're doing it wrong Joe but i think your missing that vital step, I've watched the video many times.

 

[Pauly]

Pauly

Thanks for the links but the roland pdf and the video miss vital steps and here's where I need help.

When you print the CMYK print chart i.e 0 - 100% the correct method is to use your spectrophotometer to find the highest Chroma (LCh values), you then need to measure the difference between the colours as mentioned in my first post. Using eyesight is incorrect.

Not saying you're doing it wrong Joe but i think your missing that vital step, I've watched the video many times.

So you're aware i use Onyx thrive 12.1, and no exp with versaworks. I know onyx is a lot more advance and complex with profiling and from watching the video versaworks looks quite simple.
But yes you shouldn't use your eye site to define max chroma, but it can still work. Not eveyone has the knowledge or know how to find it. I wrote a excel spread sheet to get me chroma values from measurements.

If your steps are similar to the video, then you're doing it right.
Yes you can fine tune stuff like ink restrictions/linearisation by using real data.
I dont think versaworks allows you to change ink curves or anything like that though so there's really not much more you can do. unless you have software where that's integrated with the icc profile.

make the icc profile, print some test images and see how you went. compare to the generic profiles you have and if you've done it correctly it should look better.
Also getting black gradients is vital. or your B&W prints will look black green blue and white. To check this, You can use your spectrophotometer and look at how much A & B values are away from 0. or just print a 0-100% gradient with only black ink and visually check. Visual is better here with good lighting conditions.

If you know how to use excel, i suggest you use it. It can be very powerful. You can get it to plot your chroma curves so you can visually see how good the curve is. compare test patches with delta E values ect.

 

[Joe House]

Using eyesight is incorrect.

Using eyesight gets me pretty close. I can verify it by looking at the curves after I've scanned the second set of prints. If it hooks or goes flat, I'll usually limit it some more. If it is still going up, I'll set the limit higher and rescan in either case.

I know there's more to i1 profiler software than I know, but this method seems to work for me back to my Profile Maker software days. I also know that things can get much more complicated than this.

I dont think versaworks allows you to change ink curves

- Actually you can edit the curves by changing the numbers in the chart on the right of the curve representation. Not as easy as click and drag, but easy enough.

 

[Pauly]

Using eyesight gets me pretty close. I can verify it by looking at the curves after I've scanned the second set of prints. If it hooks or goes flat, I'll usually limit it some more. If it is still going up, I'll set the limit higher and rescan in either case.

I know there's more to i1 profiler software than I know, but this method seems to work for me back to my Profile Maker software days. I also know that things can get much more complicated than this.

- Actually you can edit the curves by changing the numbers in the chart on the right of the curve representation. Not as easy as click and drag, but easy enough.

onyx you cannot click and drag either, but changing the curves make a difference. You're on the right path.

 

[danjuan]

Joe House

If it hooks or goes flat, I'll usually limit it some more. If it is still going up, I'll set the limit higher and rescan in either case

Can you post some images so i know i'm understanding it correctly, I've attached some screenshots of my ink curves, does this look right to you?

Thanks for both your help by the way.

 

[Joe House]

I've attached some screenshots of my ink curves, does this look right to you?

I don't see them anywhere. please post them and I'll take a look.

The ideal curve is a straight line from the lower left to the upper right corners (or to the point that you limited the ink on the right side). That very seldom happens so we have to linearize the colors and the rip does the math to adjust the color channels so that the output is a straight line.

The Hooked Curve image shows the graph starting to go back down (this is just simulated, I didn't scan in some swatches for this, I just adjusted the numbers to illustrate). If I saw this curve, I would limit the inks back to 75 or 80% and reprint and scan again.

With a flat curve, I would do the same thing. In this case, I'm not gaining any more color with the last 5% of the ink load, so I would cut that back to 80%

With the Climbing Curve image, I would adjust the limit upwards to 90 or 95 or even 100% then reprint and rescan.

Then, in the case of a hook or sever bump in the middle of the curve, I would first rescan the chart in case I had lifted the i1 accidentally or had some other error. I might even reprint with the same settings and rescan. If it is consistent, then I would probably adjust up to 35.5 to 36 ish and move on from there.

I'm not afraid to spend a lot of time here getting this right as it's the foundation for the rest of the process. When you're happy with all of your curves, reprint the chart and scan again. Then move on to multi ink limits, etc. Print some good test images to make sure that your profile is giving you what you want. i1 Profiler includes a lot of great evaluation images to work with.

One nice feature that I like about i1 Profiler is the ability to fine tune a profile for a specific image. If the embedded input profile is accurate in your image, you can open it in i1 Profiler and create a swatch based on the colors in the image, scan the swatches and create a profile just for that image (if you really want to go nuts with this).

I hope this helps. It's worked for me for quite a while now. Let me know if you have any more questions.

 

[Pauly]

I'm not afraid to spend a lot of time here getting this right as it's the foundation for the rest of the process. When you're happy with all of your curves, reprint the chart and scan again. Then move on to multi ink limits, etc. Print some good test images to make sure that your profile is giving you what you want. i1 Profiler includes a lot of great evaluation images to work with.

Not sure how it works on versaworks but in onyx you first do your ink restrictions. I.e max chroma.
Then you have a linearisation where you measure the restricted patch set and define the curves of the ink. This is where you can define your CMY grey accuracy if done correctly. you can mess it up and your black and white images can have a colour cast in it. That's if you're not using a heavy GCR.
Your ICC software matters too.

One nice feature that I like about i1 Profiler is the ability to fine tune a profile for a specific image. If the embedded input profile is accurate in your image, you can open it in i1 Profiler and create a swatch based on the colors in the image, scan the swatches and create a profile just for that image (if you really want to go nuts with this).

I hope this helps. It's worked for me for quite a while now. Let me know if you have any more questions.

I never tried doing that. i've seen it before though. Any difference?

 

[Joe House]

Not sure how it works on versaworks but in onyx you first do your ink restrictions. I.e max chroma.
Then you have a linearisation where you measure the restricted patch set and define the curves of the ink.

I'm bouncing back and forth, using the resulting curves to confirm my ink restrictions. Final step after getting them dialed in using the curves as a reference is to re-print and re-scan one last time. This will create the linearization table that gets used with the profile.
I think in the latest version of Onyx (12 and up) the ink limits and linearization are both done with the same scan now. They've taken out the voodoo of setting the ink limits visually (though you can still override what the software picks.).

I've only played with profiling for a particular image. Since I'm not in a production environment, and typically only make general purpose profiles, I've not had time or reason to do it much. But if I were struggling with a particular image, I wouldn't hesitate to use that feature if it were at my disposal. Again, it's dependent on the embedded profile, so if that's not good.... Garbage in, Garbage out.

 

[Pauly]

I'm bouncing back and forth, using the resulting curves to confirm my ink restrictions. Final step after getting them dialed in using the curves as a reference is to re-print and re-scan one last time. This will create the linearization table that gets used with the profile.
I think in the latest version of Onyx (12 and up) the ink limits and linearization are both done with the same scan now. They've taken out the voodoo of setting the ink limits visually (though you can still override what the software picks.).

I've only played with profiling for a particular image. Since I'm not in a production environment, and typically only make general purpose profiles, I've not had time or reason to do it much. But if I were struggling with a particular image, I wouldn't hesitate to use that feature if it were at my disposal. Again, it's dependent on the embedded profile, so if that's not good.... Garbage in, Garbage out.

There has been no visual picking in onyx since the early x10.
The ink restrictions is pretty much only to restrict maximum ink or for advance users: choose your ink drop sizes and if you have light cyan and magenta, to go the transitions.
linearisation is your ink curve. scan the patches and onyx will give your inks a curve. you can change the curve to how you want it.
Also you use this function to re-linearise the inks if there's any ink drifting.