Roland vs Mimaki vs HP vs Epson

[k_graham]

I was most interested in purchasing a printer with cutter which would be Roland vs Mimaki. However when providing sample art files to dealers the returned items indicated that Rolland is not using a RIP capable of printing transparency effects of the complex file, the Mimaki prints did not have the White box of the Roland.

Sample files here http://dc.communityprinters.com/colors .


However I then see indications that Mimaki print heads are over $2000.00 vs it looks like Roland print heads under $1000.00 (am I looking at dissimilar units and are Mimaki printheads really that high) And my location is such I would have to pay Airfare in for even warranty work.

Also if one were to consider Mimaki CJV30-130 whats the chance they will add a network board, USB2 and a 6 foot cable seems limiting.

This leaves me considering non cutter printers and purchasing a separate cutter, opinions?

Using a Spectrometer to measure samples for Delta variation the best were

HP Best, but its a 6 color unit
Mimaki (Double cmyk) CJV30-130
Rolland Worst (Double cmyk)

Have not received a sample for Epson - dealer loss by default.

Ken

 

[Mosh]

Apples, Oranges and grapes...what do you like best? You are going to get three answers on here...I have used Roland equipment since 1988 and would say they are the best. Sure some will differ....

 

[k_graham]

Apples, Oranges and grapes...what do you like best? You are going to get three answers on here...I have used Roland equipment since 1988 and would say they are the best. Sure some will differ....

In 2013 I find it unacceptable to buy a RIP that won't handle transparency - you may test yours using the complex file at http://dc.communityprinters.com/colors , normally the file must be copied to the RIP and not sent through a Postscript driver. Are you therefore using a 3rd party RIP or are you getting white boxes on output as compared to the monitor which has no such boxes.

I am also interested in Total Cost of Ownership which is why I've mentioned the seemingly high price of Mimaki Printheads - if all were the same price the decision would be easier. My understanding is they all use Epson Printheads so one would think they would be the same price but perhaps there is a carrier board that makes the difference?

Ken

 

[P Wagner]

In 2013 I find it unacceptable to buy a RIP that won't handle transparency - you may test yours using the complex file at http://dc.communityprinters.com/colors , normally the file must be copied to the RIP and not sent through a Postscript driver. Are you therefore using a 3rd party RIP or are you getting white boxes on output as compared to the monitor which has no such boxes.

I am also interested in Total Cost of Ownership which is why I've mentioned the seemingly high price of Mimaki Printheads - if all were the same price the decision would be easier. My understanding is they all use Epson Printheads so one would think they would be the same price but perhaps there is a carrier board that makes the difference?

Ken

There is a lot to cover with this. Re the printheads, you are correct in that the Roland and Mimaki machines that you are referencing use Epson printheads. The cost is dependent on the printhead model being used: DX5/6 printheads are 8-channel heads, and cost ~$2600 when purchasing from the printer manufacturer (not gray market). Older Roland and Mimaki machines use the DX4 head, a 2-channel head, which costs ~$1,000 from the OEM. These costs are for the head only, and not any external boards or other electronics. HP latex printers use HP thermal heads which are consumables items, and they run ~$100 ea.

 

[P Wagner]

In 2013 I find it unacceptable to buy a RIP that won't handle transparency - you may test yours using the complex file at http://dc.communityprinters.com/colors , normally the file must be copied to the RIP and not sent through a Postscript driver. Are you therefore using a 3rd party RIP or are you getting white boxes on output as compared to the monitor which has no such boxes.

I am also interested in Total Cost of Ownership which is why I've mentioned the seemingly high price of Mimaki Printheads - if all were the same price the decision would be easier. My understanding is they all use Epson Printheads so one would think they would be the same price but perhaps there is a carrier board that makes the difference?

Ken

The ability to handle transparency effects is dependent on several factors, including the color engine that the RIP uses (Adobe CPSI/ APPE, Jaws, Ghostscript, etc), and your specific color settings that are defined in the RIP. Typically, using different rendering intents for raster and vector data sets can cause the 'white box' effect that you are describing in your print samples. Versaworks offers a Color Management preset called Full Page Conversion Mode that can solve many of these issues.

 

[rjssigns]

KNOW THIS: Buy the printer from the shop that is right around the corner from you or at least in the same town. They all break. Which runs counter to all the sunshine the dealers have been trying to sell you. When the printer goes down it is also usually at the worst possible time. My tech is less than an hour away and same day service.

You will always get a smokin' deal from a company 1500 miles away. Why? They know they will never have to service it. Period.

 

[artbot]

there is no difference between an aftermarket dx5 and a "mimaki OEM dx5". buy the dx5 as cheap as you can get it ($1200 for 8 brand new channels equals $400 per channel). so the dx5 is much cheaper than the dx4 when adding up all the channels. plus anyone can install a dx5 in that it's all channels bound together. lining up all those dx4's is very challenging. i believe that the hp latex is "next generation" tech compared to epson/solvent. i'd give it a very serious look.

 

[k_graham]

KNOW THIS: Buy the printer from the shop that is right around the corner from you or at least in the same town. They all break. Which runs counter to all the sunshine the dealers have been trying to sell you. When the printer goes down it is also usually at the worst possible time. My tech is less than an hour away and same day service.

You will always get a smokin' deal from a company 1500 miles away. Why? They know they will never have to service it. Period.

I would if I could but there is no local dealer. Probably the closest is a 2 hour flight away plus 35 mile drive on my end. User replaceable parts are quite desirable - does HP fill that bill, if not double cmyk offers the possibility of running cmyk if one set of nozzles is down?

Ken

 

[k_graham]

there is no difference between an aftermarket dx5 and a "mimaki OEM dx5". buy the dx5 as cheap as you can get it ($1200 for 8 brand new channels equals $400 per channel). so the dx5 is much cheaper than the dx4 when adding up all the channels. plus anyone can install a dx5 in that it's all channels bound together. lining up all those dx4's is very challenging. i believe that the hp latex is "next generation" tech compared to epson/solvent. i'd give it a very serious look.

Artbot; given the HP has no cutter built in do you see that as a serious drawback?

ie. are you able to print and cut with your Mimaki or do you find yourself delaying cutting for drying time and find a offline cutter would be reasonable?

If one must delay ducting for drying a dealer for Summa cutters suggested their cutters did a better job of matching up to multiple crop marks saying others only matched to the 4 corners of a job, I'm wondering if in fact the Summa cutter is the preferred cutter?

Thanks,

Ken

 

[k_graham]

The ability to handle transparency effects is dependent on several factors, including the color engine that the RIP uses (Adobe CPSI/ APPE, Jaws, Ghostscript, etc), and your specific color settings that are defined in the RIP. Typically, using different rendering intents for raster and vector data sets can cause the 'white box' effect that you are describing in your print samples. Versaworks offers a Color Management preset called Full Page Conversion Mode that can solve many of these issues.

Full Page Conversion Mode sounds like going into Adobe Acrobat and selecting "Print as Image" yes print as image is how we used to work on our color copiers but creates huge files, definitely something we resolved with the current Xerox 700i digital press. I'm curious which method the Mimaki used. The Mimaki and Roland output were from the same dealer, I was surprised the Roland output was sent in little white boxes but that is why I provided the sample to save getting a machine with those issues. Of course I also prefer a system that doesn't use USB2 for output.

Ken

 

[P Wagner]

Full Page Conversion Mode sounds like going into Adobe Acrobat and selecting "Print as Image" yes print as image is how we used to work on our color copiers but creates huge files, definitely something we resolved with the current Xerox 700i digital press. I'm curious which method the Mimaki used. The Mimaki and Roland output were from the same dealer, I was surprised the Roland output was sent in little white boxes but that is why I provided the sample to save getting a machine with those issues. Of course I also prefer a system that doesn't use USB2 for output.

Ken

Full Page Conversion Mode does not rasterize the entire file the way that Print as Image would. It changes to a common Rendering Intent for both types of data, but does not rasterize vector data.

 

[artbot]

i can't speak for cutting work flow. i don't use vinyl in my work. there is a common debate if it's better to be printing and cutting simultaneously or just have the one machine. if i was print/cutting, i'd lean toward the two machines are faster than one. and speed is everything. user changeable heads, is a plus for HP if your shop is a bit remote (although dx5's are pretty easy). just keep an eye on low maintenance, fast dry, and fast cutting. in a year's time you might find that you've worked hundreds of hours less in that same shop with "this kit vs that kit". time is money. with more time you can work harder promoting and finding the larger dollar jobs. locked in your shop waiting on slow work flow doesn't allow you to be free to market and develop.

 

[SightLine]

I also cannot really speak much on Latex. It's currently trendy but ultimately resin inks are probably the future. Cheap disposable super easy printheads is a plus I guess. You do have to change them much more often though. I generally get well over 2 years on an Epson head. For solvent, both Rolands and Mimakis are solid machines that can give excellent output. I'm partial to Mimaki since that is what I've always used. Printhead costs, make sure you are comparing OEM to OEM for the same type heads. As artbot mentioned both brands have used the same Epson heads but it might be different head types. Also ad he mentioned, a single DX5 head machine, very very easy to replace the head yourself with almost zero alignment issues. Machines that use multiple heads will be much more complicated to service and align yourself. You go on about color but then seem most interested in the stock RIP the machines come with which will generally never be quite as capable as an aftermarket RIP like FlexiSign, Onyx, Caldera, etc. I'm not personally fond of built in cutters, you still have to take the material off the machine to laminate it then reload it, cannot print if cutting, if your cutter breaks then your printer is probably broken too, etc. Think of the combo DVD/VCRs when they were popular, sure it could do both but it was not really perfect at either and if half has a problem then the other half invariably also has a problem.

Summa cutters are highly regarded as some of the most accurate out and does happen to be what we use. We have an S160T, I just cut a logo printed on 3M 680 reflective ($$$$$) that is 15 feet long. Actually a bunch of logos and text also on the same single cut job. Less than a half a mm off, literally near dead perfect cut. That's cutting thick heavy material which even more difficult.

 

[xxtoni]

Alrighty

I personally love these types of huge, open ended threads because it allows me to write huge posts where I can just go on, in one long, incredibly unbroken sentence, moving from topic to topic.

Me

We have 2 printers in our shop right now. One is a VS-640 with CMYLLcLm+M+W and another is a Seiko based production printer.

Stereotypes

Roland
Mimaki
HP
Epson

Roland

Roland makes fine machines. The price is pretty decent and while they may not be the fastest printers in the world the quality is top notch and you can basically put the media on the take up system and leave it alone. You'll never get any banding (at least I never have) or head strikes if you aligned the media properly. My only problem with Roland machines is that they feel like toys. Don't get me wrong, what they do is superb. Quality is great, speed not so much but it's reliable and you can basically leave it to do it's thing all day long without giving it a second though, so speed isn't that important for me in that regard. We've never been delayed on the job cause our printer couldn't deliver fast enough. BUT they feel really fragile. Roland makes them really strong and they have a really nice, timeless design but they are also kinda plastickly and I personally wouldn't trust my VS with a 50m roll of banner.

So decent price, great quality, acceptable speed (there are fast Roland printers out there like the new Monster, so if that's important to you, worth a look). Feels a bit fragile though


Mimaki

I personally think that Mimaki is king of the hill as far as high quality solvent printers go. They're probably the most expensive of the bunch but they feel rock solid and have a very good quality. They're probably the best designed solvent printer out there, they're sturdy and did I mention most expensive ?

If money isn't too much of a concern I'd personally go with a Mimaki as it can match the Roland on print quality and pass it over on print speed and sturdiness

Epson

No way. Move right along, nothing to see here

HP - I'll discuss HP under Solvent vs Latex

Solvent VS Latex

Disclosure first, I've never owned a latex printer. I've talked to people that own them though and also know people that sold and maintained them.

Advantages of latex over solvent

- Maintenance
- Ink drying
- Odor
- Speed
- Environment

Disadvantages

Price, Price, Price

... and a few other things I probably can't remember on top of my mind.

I personally operate out of an market that's all about price. It doesn't really matter who your client is, if you want the work your prices have to math the market at least in some degree and the market is made up of one price cutter after another. What does that mean ?

Well it of course on what part of the business you're doing. If you're for example printing wall scapes and billboards, like we sometimes do, every cent you save on media, ink and other stuff is a cent you've earned. In this regard if you used latex in our market you couldn't hope to make a buck.

If you were to use latex in the high quality print market, you wouldn't be at an loss per say but would be making significantly less money than on an solvent printer.

Then comes the issue of the print heads. On average you can usually hope for latex to last some 3l before the heads go poof. If the printer has 6 heads, that's $600. On my VS-640 the DX head that's it in costs $2k. I've installed aftermarket inks on it a few months after I got it and since then we've replaced one head on it. That's been 2 years ago and we didn't pay for this head because our ink supplier concluded that the company that sells them the ink either sent them old ink or ink not perfectly suitable for this printer.

Anyways let's assume that we paid those $2k for the head. That's $2k for the head and maybe a couple hundred for servicing, so let's say $2.5k for 2 years of ownership and some 10,000 sqf printed (probably more, I don't know the exact number).

Our production printer had 6 heads but we threw out the lights cause we didn't need them so now it has 4. We bought it used at a bargain price and replaced 2 heads on it, that's around $1.5k and we've printer over 50k sqf on it using cheap mild solvent ink.

So what does it all come down to ? Convenience vs price

I am pretty sure that a latex based printer is better in a lot of stuff than solvent based ones. We had a mishap the other day with ink not being dry on something we printed and due to handling the print got damaged. This wouldn't have happened on a latex for sure.

Also when we had to replace our print head on the VS it was out of commission for 10 days cause we had to wait for a print head to arrive cause we couldn't get one locally. With the latex you would probably have a few heads lying around as spare parts.

For the average member on here this doesn't really matter cause the prices in the West are such that you probably don't have to worry about a $100 head every 3l of ink and the price of ink because the market is such that the cost of these is negligible.

That's perfectly fine, I'd probably get myself a latex ASAP if the market conditions allowed for it but there's no way a latex printer is cheaper to run than a solvent printer. The heads, the ink and probably the media is significantly more expensive on the latex side.

As far as maintenance goes, it really depends on the printer and just dumb luck I guess. The only real maintenance we had to do on our Roland was the head replacement. That's it. In 2 years that was the only instance and we don't even manually clean it. It's been months since we did it last, probably should do it soon though.

If you compare Eco Sol Max (Roland's ink) ink vs HP latex ink the latex probably wins out, but I don't know of anyone that runs Eco Sol Max in their Rolands after the warranty expires, I personally didn't even wait that long because the warranty we had was basically useless because the dealership was retarded but that's another story for another time.


Built in cutter vs separate machine

Our VS-640 has a cutter but personally I'd prefer a separate machine. If you have the space a separate cutter that can read the registration marks (this is pretty important) I'd go with that. The advantages are speed as you can print and cut at the same time instead of one process taking up the machine the entire time.


My Recommendation

If you don't really care about the price, either initial or later on the HP is probably a good choice.

If you want a reliable workhorse and your budget allows a Mimaki is the way to go. I'd get aftermarket inks on it as soon as it's viable though. I don't remember if Mimaki offers bulk inks, I know that Mutoh does but can't recall if Mimaki does the same thing.

If you can't afford a Mimaki but you want a high quality printer I'd personally go with Roland.

EDIT:

I just re-read the OP.

Transparency can be a nuisance but it's not that much of a problem. Ideally one wouldn't have to deal with it but we just flatten it and be on your way.

And regarding the print head price...no, the newer Roland heads cost $2k and the Mimaki ones should be in the same ballpark. But as said, this shouldn't be that much of an issue. It's not something you replace every day or year.

 

[SightLine]

Great overview xxtoni! Another thing I'd point out is media handling and the takeup device. I'm really only very familiar with Mimakis in that regard but I've read threads on other brands where the takeup is just not up to the task. Mimaki's takeup works great. I do not tape it on a core before printing either. Mimaki has a "clicker" of sorts on the rear roll holder which makes loading a roll straight very easy. Load the material, go to the front, pull it to one of the "click" points from in the middle of the material, the clicker puts just a small bit of back tension on the roll so you can wiggle it a little left and right to make sure it is perfectly centered. Lower the clamps and go. I will print right on the first 6 inches of the material, when it gets to the lower takeup, just tape it to a core in the middle first, then left and right. At that point you can walk away. This saves a few feet of material but you MUST pay attention when printing is starting as you must tape it to the core on the takeup at the right time. You can always just advance a few feet of material (wasteful) and tape it to the core before you start printing as well and I've read on some machines you have to do that no matter what.

At 5:30pm yesterday I put a brand new 54" roll of 3M 180CV3 on the printer. Started a print job for a wrap for a 35' bus. Waited a few minutes to tape it to the core on the takeup. I then shut off the lights and went home. This morning there is a FULL roll printed on the takeup. This particular job literally uses all but about 7 feet of material on the full 50yd roll. We do this all the time and I have near absolute confidence in the machine to run attended overnight. Both on our current JV33 and our old JV3 (both have the exact same takeup) I can only think of one time in the past 8 years where the takeup did not work and yes, that was a big mess.... it was only because the roll just got too heavy - we tried to let it run 18oz banner unattended overnight. That is about the only thing I'd not try that with again. Any kind of vinyl, no problem at all. On a JV33 (and probably a CJV) Mimaki you can replace the single DX5 head if needed and be printing again in under 30 minutes from start to finish with almost zero alignment to worry about. That is being very generous, realistically you should be able to do it in under 15 minutes... Rare that you would need to though. I think it has been about 2 years since I last replaced ours and the nozzle test is still 100% perfect.

We also run bulk - if you do go with a bulk ink system I'd strongly recommend one of the newer systems that used a sealed bag setup over any of the older tank style systems. So much less hassle and eliminates any of the issues with air pressures getting weird in the ink train, splatters, drips, funnels, etc. I have been running Triangles JVV inks in our Mimaki's for literally years with almost zero issues. We did have an issue at one time with Triangle cartridges but it was not the ink, it was the actual cartridge that had a problem but we have not run cartridges in a long time. I installed Triangles top of the line EcoBulk system and have zero regrets. It works great and the ink comes in the largest capacity I've seen for printers in this class - 2 liters boxes per colors. With the sub-cartridges and a full ink box on each color you literally have nearly the equivalent of 5 440ml cartridges per color. I know Triangle, Bordeaux, and a couple of others have bag type bulk systems out now, even Mimaki's own bulk system uses ink bags. I cannot testify on other brands of ink though.

Regardless - this is a picture I like to come in and see in the morning and we do this a LOT. A perfectly wound full roll of material printed.... that saves a LOT of daytime production time when you can print a full roll of material overnight. Might not be a big deal if you have no plans for big print runs though.

 

[xxtoni]

Yea I can testify to a lot of the stuff SightLine has said, similar situation with my Roland.

Though my Roland didn't come with a take up system. I wasn't willing to give Roland $2k for theirs so I just bought an aftermarket one somewhere for like $300-400. Works perfectly. It's tension based which means it pulls all the time but when there is resistance it stops pulling but as soon as the resistance is gone it pulls again.

Yes the bag based bulks are very important. The first person to recommend me bulks was obviously a hack, he recommended me ones without bags and I'm sure it would have all turned into a huge mess if I wen't with that but fortunately I found a competent technician who advised me well and did the bulk setup. So don't choose a system without the bag based cartridges.

Also be careful when it comes to ink, it's the ink that ruins your print head more than anything. A 1 year head life is in my opinion too low but consider this...12 months, 365 days and it may cost you $2k in maintenance. Imagine how much stuff you can print in 1 year, how much media, ink and money that is. Yea, what SightLine said is totally true, if you know what you're doing you can totally replace a print head in half an hour. I've never done so on our Roland cause it's a relatively new machine but our production machine...on there we've replaced heads, took them apart, replaced dampers in them, replaced ink pumps, subtanks and so on. Over time it serves you best to learn to service your own machine, which usually isn't all that hard and just requires some guts.

If something big goes down and we can't diagnose it, we call in our trusty technician and let him handle it.

I've personally left our Roland on overnight shifts a few times but I avoid doing so for 2 reasons. 1) Something can always happen. If something does happen our Roalnd sends us an email with the error (No ink, no media, random error number, job finished...) and basically cries like a baby until we come but I don't want to risk hundreds of dollars worth of ink and media if such an issue could be simply avoided if we were there. #2 is...well the Roland activates our security system. Happened once and I don't want to have it happen again. I'm at home, sleeping at 2am and suddenly the security company calls me and says something activated the alarm and they're at sight but can't see anyone inside. That wasn't so great lol.

Ultimately though, our deadlines are never that tight that the Roland can't keep up, even if it is kinda slow. We've never been in a situation where we were really waiting for the Roland to finish in order to resume a big job.

While I was writting the initial post the Roland had just finished a 25 sqm (270 sqft) job. And the second image is the bulk ink system we have.
The images attac