I do a good amount of vehicles and some basic aluminum signs but typically we just do 4' X 8' sheets and the customers are just putting them in their own frame they already have. I have a job to install 2 4' X 8' signs up on an existing frame about 15' off the ground and remove an old 180" X 8' sign and reinstall a new sign. All of this is just on aluminum and nothing crazy but just wanted to see what a good estimate would be for that. I just don't want to say something that is way too low for that work.
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Sign Installation Pricing
- Thread starter yamaha581
- Start date
Geneva Olson
Expert Storyteller
Think about your items that you will need to get to the 15' sign. Are you going to need scaffold? ladders?
How much time will it take to put it up?
Are you going to have to take and haul off the old sign? Or will they keep it?
Shop time plus materials needed to do the job (include rentals of scaffolds/trucks, etc).
Then a trip charge to cover getting there and back.
Time = money.
How much time will it take to put it up?
Are you going to have to take and haul off the old sign? Or will they keep it?
Shop time plus materials needed to do the job (include rentals of scaffolds/trucks, etc).
Then a trip charge to cover getting there and back.
Time = money.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
Can't price or help you without pics.
Ray Miller
Owner
The way I understand it here in Penna. is that if you're going to be up in the air, installing boards of any material, and especially if you're going to need equipment like ladders, scaffolding or a lift you need to have insurance to cover you and if you aren't you're not supposed to be doing this kind of work. If you'd drop a tool and it hit someone's car or a person and you're not properly insured, the person with the damage will next sue the city where you're at and then when they find out you're not covered, it's going to get bad. I never had it happen, but I do try to get people to install their own stuff.
Some places are more lax than others, but it's best to know up front what's going to happen and not take unnecessary chances.
Some places are more lax than others, but it's best to know up front what's going to happen and not take unnecessary chances.
That's why I was just asking to get an idea. Typically for what I do everyone just is able to install the signs themselves so it is nothing I have had to do other than small signs before.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
That's exactly why I thought you wouldn't be insured properly. No sense taking chances like mentioned and losing a good reputation. Takes a long time to build one and only seconds or minutes to destroy one.
signbrad
New Member
Who decides what is "too low?" If your shop rate does not cover your overhead plus wages (including your own), that would surely be "too low," because you are below your breakeven point. On the other hand, if your overhead and wages are covered, and you have included a profit margin, can anyone else tell you that you are too low? Perhaps you are just more efficient. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you must add one-time expenses because installation is not part of your routine, I would think it unlikely that you are going to seriously undercut the prices of others. This is especially true if you remember to include all the time associated with an install. For example, if you rent a lift, the cost of the rental is not the only expense. You may need to go get the equipment and then return it. If that adds an effective two hours (or whatever) to the job, it may be unlikely that you will be too low on the selling price. And what about loading and unloading your truck? This is part of installation time, too, right? And then there may be time involved to procure a permit, in addition to the cost (and markup) of the permit fee. If you drive to city hall and kill an hour on the permit, somebody needs to pay for that time, right?
Liability insurance may be the main thing you should worry about, as others have mentioned. Your accountant may advise that you carry liability insurance whether you do installations or not. In some of my early years, when everything I did was "cash and carry," I believe I still had some kind of minimum liability.
Insurance is a monthly expense, of course. So it is part of overhead and will be part of your hourly shop rate.
Unless...you can get insurance on a job by job basis. You know, like flight insurance. Is that even possible?
If someone tells you that you are "too low," ask them why they say that. After all, there are no pricing police. If someone is simply annoyed that you are cheaper than they are, that's not necessarily a cause for concern, unless the one telling you that you are too cheap is your accountant. Of course, it can be helpful to know if your prices vary significantly from your competition. For example, if you are routinely half the price of your competitors, you should know why. Is it because you don't mark up materials, or because you pay yourself a small salary, or because you have little or no profit margin? Knowing why can make you smarter at pricing.
On the other hand, mindlessly charging what others charge (not that you do this) is not a good business practice. My accountant calls it a form of Russian roulette.
The main thing, though, is to have fun.
Brad in Kansas City
Johnny Best
Active Member
When I first started in the sign business on my own in the 60s you could do these type of installs and even electrical projects. But now, get the insurance and paperwork to pull permits. Not doing it is like walking through a field with land mines. Eventually you will lose a limb. With all the lawyers out there and city inspectors, you will get caught. It is not worth it. Comply.
It sounds like in the UK installation regulations are simpler (not sure if this is a good thing!).
There are generally no requirements to obtain a permit to work in a specific area (state / county etc.)
We have public liability insurance and produce site specific RAMS when requested, although these are only usually asked for when working on construction sites / shopping centres etc.)
With regards to installation costs we look at the following
- Travel: if the job is more than half an hour away then we include travel costs
- Man Power: How many people will the job require for a safe and easy installation? (For most sign installs this is at least 2, some vinyl installations it's just 1).
- Call out charge: This is the base fee for a simple easy installation, i.e. you go out, pop up your ladders and slide a new panel into an existing frame and are away within 10 minutes, needs to take into account man power and if it's a team of 1, 2 or 12 but this is often all we charge for fast, easy installs.
- Cost per item: look at each item in the job / quote, consider how long you estimate each item to take to install, multiply this by your hourly rate per installer.
- Additional costs: are there other factors you need to include? Do you need to hire a cherry picker or scissor lift? Are there parking or other vehicular charges you will incurr? Can the install be carried out during normal working hours? Will you have to produce RAMS or something similar? Are there other PITA factors that need to be costed in?
Obviously there is a lot to consider here, I think once you have been doing this for quite a while it almost becomes second nature to look at each item in a job and just know you need to charge £x for this item, £y for that one, £z for travel and so on.
I personally wouldn't be afraid of being too expensive for an installation, after all it's your knowledge and experience, coupled with insurance and work permits that will separate you from the cowboys down the road.
There are generally no requirements to obtain a permit to work in a specific area (state / county etc.)
We have public liability insurance and produce site specific RAMS when requested, although these are only usually asked for when working on construction sites / shopping centres etc.)
With regards to installation costs we look at the following
- Travel: if the job is more than half an hour away then we include travel costs
- Man Power: How many people will the job require for a safe and easy installation? (For most sign installs this is at least 2, some vinyl installations it's just 1).
- Call out charge: This is the base fee for a simple easy installation, i.e. you go out, pop up your ladders and slide a new panel into an existing frame and are away within 10 minutes, needs to take into account man power and if it's a team of 1, 2 or 12 but this is often all we charge for fast, easy installs.
- Cost per item: look at each item in the job / quote, consider how long you estimate each item to take to install, multiply this by your hourly rate per installer.
- Additional costs: are there other factors you need to include? Do you need to hire a cherry picker or scissor lift? Are there parking or other vehicular charges you will incurr? Can the install be carried out during normal working hours? Will you have to produce RAMS or something similar? Are there other PITA factors that need to be costed in?
Obviously there is a lot to consider here, I think once you have been doing this for quite a while it almost becomes second nature to look at each item in a job and just know you need to charge £x for this item, £y for that one, £z for travel and so on.
I personally wouldn't be afraid of being too expensive for an installation, after all it's your knowledge and experience, coupled with insurance and work permits that will separate you from the cowboys down the road.
In our city, if you make the sign and the customer installs it they can come back on you and fine or take your sign license.
The thought is only to have professional sign installers installing signs. That way they aren't falling off the building killing people.
It's a pain, but ever since we had a building collapse due to crappy construction practices. OSHA has been very present in the city.
The thought is only to have professional sign installers installing signs. That way they aren't falling off the building killing people.
It's a pain, but ever since we had a building collapse due to crappy construction practices. OSHA has been very present in the city.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Never heard of that one.
It's a new way to penalize the sign shop or customer, or both. They city and their fees...
Instead of griping that you've never heard of it, read the sign ordinance and then you WILL have heard of it. https://www.siouxfalls.gov/files/as...d-permits/building-services/signs/1e25143.pdf
In order to apply for a sign permit, you must be a licensed sign contractor in good standing. So the customer (business owner) cannot apply for the permit and by extension cannot install the sign himself. In the sign contractor licensing ordinance it references this punishment chapter for violation:
Gino
Premium Subscriber
What you consider griping is really just me saying..... I've never heard of such a rule or code.
If you think I'm gonna waste my time reading a 45 page codes book from 2,000 miles away from me, you're nuts.
What you outlined makes sense. If no permit was obtained, of course there will be sh!t to be paid for. Sounds as if this area wants to know before anything is made..... what's going on. Therefore the sign shop could be held liable....... so what's your point, if the guy didn't follow certain codes ??
If you think I'm gonna waste my time reading a 45 page codes book from 2,000 miles away from me, you're nuts.
What you outlined makes sense. If no permit was obtained, of course there will be sh!t to be paid for. Sounds as if this area wants to know before anything is made..... what's going on. Therefore the sign shop could be held liable....... so what's your point, if the guy didn't follow certain codes ??
The point is that if you sell a sign in Sioux Falls, SD and the customer puts it up himself, by definition the sign was put up without a permit since the customer is not a licensed sign contractor and only licensed sign contractors are allowed to pull permits. There are penalties for putting up a sign without a permit. There are also penalties for licensed sign contractors who violate the ordinances, and they are required to keep records of who buys portable signs for two years. So the sign company can be tracked for a non-permitted sign and can be penalized, which is what Bxtr stated that you said he didn't know what he was talking about or misread the ordinance.