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Calling all Design Police............................................
- Thread starter Gino
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
This is the one that ticks me off. For the life of me...... just about every person on this site and every sign shop USA and around the world have the same problem....... they don't tell the customer up front about either not paying for the rights to your creation or not owning it it in the end. You're afraid you'll lose the initial sale if you impose or even bring something like this up. Then, when the customer comes back for something, the sign person wants to hold the artwork hostage based on some silly law on the books which is hard to make work on the low level we're all on. Harley Davidson, Nike, Coca Cola, McDonald's..... they're all a different story.
Sure, the law exists, but the time, money and business lost in trying to fight for something you concealed in the beginning, just doesn't sound right to me. Wanna run your business by pulling stoopid little pranks on your customers, see how long you last in business. Someone mentioned integrity, this has nothing to do with this. You have to have had integrity to begin with to have it taken away. This is just plain cowardliness and bad business mixed into one.
Marlene
New Member
a professional shop doesn't pull stupid pranks on customers. a professional shop has a line item on the quote that states the design is for the construction of (fill in what ever it is that you are making) and that all rights to the design and use remain with (fill in your company) another line item sells the design and all rights to it. do that and there are no problems
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I believe that's what I just said. Perhas the wording was misleading, but professionals will run their facility professionally,where most sign shops are running by the seat of their pants. No questions need to pop up later, cause all of the information has been read, approved, dated and signed.
DesireeM
New Member
I think there's a difference between copying a design or layout that was made for a different company vs copying a design that was made for that same company.
The person that designed his truck originally got paid for the design and production. You wouldn't be stealing the design because you are not taking credit for the design. You're simply recreating the production of it. BUT if the customer was given a design that was never produced and doesn't pay for it - then takes that design to you and asks you to recreate it so that he doesn't have to pay you AS MUCH for design - THEN I would show him the door - and maybe kick him in the *** on the way out.
We get customers all the time that have a business card or brochure already designed and want us to use the same design on a bus ad or pull-up banner. It makes sense to "copy" the design style of whoever designed their other ads. But if a customer handed me their competitors logo and said "I want you to use the same logo but put our company name under it instead" I would politely decline.
We also have customers that send us vehicle wrap "guidelines" from their corporate offices. Some large marketing and branding firm designed a vehicle wrap that all of their smaller offices around the country are supposed to adhere to. Is that the same thing? We are using someone elses design for that company. Not stealing the design. The customer has rights to their own branding to a certain extent.
The person that designed his truck originally got paid for the design and production. You wouldn't be stealing the design because you are not taking credit for the design. You're simply recreating the production of it. BUT if the customer was given a design that was never produced and doesn't pay for it - then takes that design to you and asks you to recreate it so that he doesn't have to pay you AS MUCH for design - THEN I would show him the door - and maybe kick him in the *** on the way out.
We get customers all the time that have a business card or brochure already designed and want us to use the same design on a bus ad or pull-up banner. It makes sense to "copy" the design style of whoever designed their other ads. But if a customer handed me their competitors logo and said "I want you to use the same logo but put our company name under it instead" I would politely decline.
We also have customers that send us vehicle wrap "guidelines" from their corporate offices. Some large marketing and branding firm designed a vehicle wrap that all of their smaller offices around the country are supposed to adhere to. Is that the same thing? We are using someone elses design for that company. Not stealing the design. The customer has rights to their own branding to a certain extent.
Pat Whatley
New Member
Forget the design....I'm more interested in why someone would want catered bowling alley food.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
This is tricky... I'm only talking as a designer. If I design a wrap, and that scope is a design for
that one vehicle. Then the client takes it in for maintenance, they should ask me to send the file.
They gets a few new ones done... no biggie, yeah, it's beyond the scope, but within reason. They do
a fleet... that may get into "what" they purchased. They franchise, they no longer treat the design as
intended, it's now a product and has more worth. It's a scope change
Again... I'm only talking as a designer. If I design a brochure, and that scope is a design for
that one print. Then the client takes it in for a larger run, they should ask me to send the file.
They print a few new runs... no biggie, yeah, it's beyond the scope, but within reason. They do
a national mailer... that may get into "what" they purchased. Some clip art and photos restrict
such usage, which means I have to as well.
Copyright protects MY rights of reproduction on the work I designed within that scope. It protects
the client fron just anyone reproducing it without permission
I make style guides for companies, that's the clients go ahead to send that out for reproduction as long
as you stay within the style guide. The marketing firm may be the "brand" manager and still get paid for
minor consultations or maybe they included that in the price. The client has the right to change it.
There is no scope change, thats a redesign... unless of course a designer gets buggy with derivative work.
Again, depends on what was transferred over.
My job is to understand intellectual property enough to sell it or restrict it. At the very least. I ALWAYS
maintain rights of promotion. Unless it's part of the scope, I ALWAYS maintain my rights if it becomes a
product... like franchising. And I never give away source file artwork, unless they pay for it. usually 5-10
times the design. But I will send it to the printer or sign shop... for free usually OR a small administrative
fee. That is usually cheaper than having a sign shop redesign it, and will look better depending on if they sign
shop is capable or redrawing it... as in cases I have been through this. Most sign shops are not.
Otherwise, I don't care all that much if they send it to a sign shop for reproduction, just don't bellyache it it
sucks or wonder why your business does not look as good as it did before.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I tend to agree... but the food looked pretty good to me... though I was not willing to try it.
DesireeM
New Member
I'm a designer as well. I just happened to end up in sign production and it seems to suit me very well so now I do both.
I agree with your comment above completely. At some point you have to let go and let the customer deal with the consequences. If a customer paid for design and branding (along with guidelines) they probably appreciate its purpose and are probably less likely to start messing around with reproductions. I don't think that is the type of case we are all discussing though. There are so many variables to consider because every situation will be slightly different BUT any honest and logical person should be able to decide if they are being asked to do something questionable. I guess it just comes down to how much integrity you have. Some people just won't care - some people will care too much.
There are "gray areas"....sometimes a customer likes the design you supplied but maybe the relationship turns sour. There were no guarantees that just because you provided some branding that they are stuck with you forever or that they can never use the logo you designed or continue with their brand identity.
If the customer's business is less profitable than it once was they might seek production from someone cheaper just because they can't afford the original guy. I wouldn't be offended if they used the same design.
I think in the end you just have to use your best judgment because sometimes the customer can't be trusted to use theirs.
I fundamentally agree with this, but what suck is that it makes you charge larger companies more money for the same work, or you could look at it as charging smaller companies less.. lol
You are an example of what I mean when I say, someone who does great work and CHARGES for it.. You make it clear to customers.. cheers!
I think there is a lot of Apples VS Oranges with those who disagree.
My point is "Brand Designers" VS. "Joe Schmoe Font Logo Sign Shops"
While those two could be intertwined or even the same person. One of them is known to get paid for great design and one of them has a nasty reputation for holding average artwork hostage - then getting mad when someone else is doing the work.
My point is "Brand Designers" VS. "Joe Schmoe Font Logo Sign Shops"
While those two could be intertwined or even the same person. One of them is known to get paid for great design and one of them has a nasty reputation for holding average artwork hostage - then getting mad when someone else is doing the work.
garisimo
New Member
Too bad they couldn't get another font in there...
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I still think there is some flaw in all your analogies... it's not the same work but the work is
worth more... it is usually about scope.
Think of the average reproducing sign shop as a bad song... say this one.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3MbVoLYns
Then think of a good design firm as this song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ
One sucks, one is great, they are both protected equally under copyright.
Yes but if I am queen/freddie mercury then I make sure that im getting paid for the song, its usage, songwriting, etc. The point im making is not about copyright ownership. Its about copyright ownership application and assertion. If you design something for someone and you do not properly assert to them that YOU are retaining ownership at the time of them buying said products. Then you do not have a leg to stand on.
If I am a local rap producer and some homie comes in to get me to make him a crappy beat to a rhythm he had in his head. I charge $100 and he leaves with his beat on a disc. I should be happy to get my money. Say then later on the song gets reworked by another producer at a NICE studio using that same basic rhythm and he starts making some good money for it.. then why should I be mad? I gave him what he wanted for $100 and a "See ya later".
If I was a top notch producer, he would pay good money and I would either sell the beat outright or offer him a publishing agreement on it. But never would I get some money with no agreement and then be mad later on.
Think of your work as a car. If your work is a bugatti, then you are going to make sure it has insurance, do the proper maintenance etc.. If your work is a 1993 rusty beat up sentra, you will have liability insurance, you will throw some gas station oil in there every 2 weeks etc.
Now say you own both of those cars and they get stolen. You had full coverage on the bugatti, in the form of payment for design services a scope of use agreement etc. For the Nissan, you had liability, you got to do a banner, some business cards and magnets.. If it got stolen, youre outta luck.
So either A- Get full coverage on that beat up sentra or B-keep the liability and dont be mad when it gets stolen.
AND to be very clear, I stand by this. Selecting a couple of fonts, arching the top words, adding some colors and a random clipart is NOT anything that should, could or would ever be considered for a copyright. If anyone asserts ownership of some 15 minute crap like that.. then they deserve a few lashings
Here is my question, you design a branding package for a store that includes channel letters, logo for embroidering apparel, a wrap for thier 2014 transit, business cards, brochures, website etc. You get paid $5000 for that work. Under the scope that this is branding for the company and they have 1 store.
Now 6 months later, Mark Cuban comes in and partners up, loves all the branding and proceeds to help them open 50 more stores with all the same exact stuff even 1 transit per store. Do you deserve more money? Your answer will probably be yes, so i'll ask this... Did you do ANY extra work for that extra money that you now want to change the scope of the agreement?
How is it not the same work if it is done for 1 store, then those same exact graphics are applied to 50 more?
Im not dissing what you do, I love it. If I had those skills I would use them to the fullest. But I would never say that its "more work" when a 1 store client wants to apply thier branding to 50 more stores. Maybe im an idiot, but what are you doing extra to say that?
Joe Diaz
New Member
Not really so.
The owner of the artwork would be the designer until the designer specifically sells the design to the client. If we are talking about a "leg to stand on" in court, the client would need to prove that they bought the design to be used outside of the scope of the project they hired you for and that they didn't just purchase a sign. If they cannot prove that, they don't have a leg to stand on. Selling a sign or some sort of end product that uses a design is not the same thing as selling a design.
This doesn't need to be stated to the client before you are hired to do a job, that being said, we often do to avoid headaches. We would be in the right if we didn't "assert" that we own our designs, no matter how upset the client might get, but it's better and easier to avoid upsetting a client for obvious reason. Besides, we have found that spending a short amount of time explaining the difference is also the best way for us to up-sell branding packages. A design that is meant to be used beyond just a sign is more valuable to a company.
Design ownership should be common knowledge. The only reason it isn't is because so many in our own industry don't seem to understand this very basic info.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
What I am saying is:
The work is equally protected under copyright... whether a sign shop did it, or a design firm
Kinda cool that the little guy is protected.
On the Mark Cuban thing:
I design a logo with all the goodies based on the scope... that is. it's for its intended purpose.
It's charged according to my time, and it's worth. When Mark Cuban comes along, it turns into
a product. The scope changed, it needs compensation. This is standard stuff. The standard is
written in the AIGA and GAG Standard practices.
In my best redneck voice "your honor, I paid him four hundred dollars to design me some artwork and sticker up my truck. Now he is trying to charge me another $250 for the artwork cause I need it for luellen to make me one of dem fancy embroidered hats"
judge to sign guy "did you assert that the logo was your property? Do you have a signed invoice saying its yours? No? Ok case closed!"
when selling the use of something that you want to retain ownership of, you must assert ownership and rights. If it isnt made very clear, then you have a problem
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Not true, you (the designer) owns it and you need no
document to prove it. But a registered copyright has
more leverage and more potential for larger lawsuit
amounts and in some cases jail time depending on what
was done. I believe there are flaws in the system.
The legal part....
When the designer either in a contract, invoice or
written statement states that they transfer ownership
of copyright to the client, is when the client owns it.
Artwork is technically not up for grabs so cover your
buttocks.
I have work that is done for branding and design agencies
that I can't show because it was agreed up that way.
Also, work I have done as an employee at some shops
and design firms, I can't show either if it was part of the
terms for employment. I always got one part of
my employment terms changed, I got to keep my right to
have a printed portfolio for employment use.
If you WANT to give the client the rights, but don't
want to do the legal written transfer, then thats a
business decision.
Even then, they may not outright own it 100% if clip-art
or stock photos are involved. A sign shop or client is
crazy not to keep rights of promotion. If a sign shop
transfers ALL ownership, they can have that work taken
off their website if the client demands it.
At the very least.... keep your rights of promotion.
Joe Diaz
New Member
The judge wouldn't likely ask that. In your scenario, the burden of proof would be on the redneck who would need to prove that he actually bought a logo from you and didn't simply hire you to build a sign. The problem with your point of view on this topic is that IF that redneck somehow did win his case against the sign maker, the guy could then simply walk into a courtroom and claim that he owns a design after anything has been sold to him. So what's to stop that person from buying a NASCAR decal, then claiming he owns that logo now because he bought a decal with that design on it.
And this leads me back to the original topic: If someone were to hire a designer to create a design, not pay that person, hire someone else to copy that design and then pay that second person for their trace job, who do you think owns the design then? This actually happens more times than we probably realize. We have all had people stop in with sketches from other sign shops at least once in our careers. Just because the customer hires and pays the second sign shop to recreate that design doesn't mean he now owns it and has the rights to all the art files. In fact now the second sign shop has been put in jeopardy.