Pricing 4x4 signs?

[eahicks]

Good lord....we would sell a 4'x4' coro for $80. MAYBE drop to $70 each for big qty. How in the world can you stay open selling a 16 s.f. sign at $2 a ft?

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Here is my math... at $25/ea we make about $5-$7 ea with $4-$5 Coro, $8 Vinyl/Consumables, $6 Labor/Overhead.

Installing these on an app table we average 30/hr. So that's $150/hr in profit or $1500/day for our standard day in just those. We are a small operation so those numbers are good for us... your mileage may vary.

 

[Kevin-shopVOX]

You just need to break it down so you can see in front of you where your profits are. Personally I'd stick to the price based off of mark-ups etc I desired on all aspects of the job, give it to the customer and go from there. However, being able to see every aspect and the total mark-up above total cost gives you the confidence to adjust price based off of those customer's that say, "i want to pay this price!". It's half the reason to have a pricing program like signVOX in the first place. It is priced in under 20 seconds, sent to the customer in 5 and you can move on to the next. If the customer balks at the price you know how far down you can go and make that adjustment in another few seconds and resend. The next time you need to quote the same job you'll get the same results so you have price consistency. Pricing is pretty easy actually. Known costs, plus desired mark up, time involved and knowing your absolute bottom line on each kind of job. Just my two cents.

edited: added pic I forgot to add vinyl on the coro.....doh!

 

[TyrantDesigner]

Jesus. At $40 each on coro ... I would need to sell 50 at that price just to make it worth my time. maybe if they also bought a bunch of other stuff too or were repeat customers i would sell it to them at that ... maybe.

 

[TimToad]

Here is my math... at $25/ea we make about $5-$7 ea with $4-$5 Coro, $8 Vinyl/Consumables, $6 Labor/Overhead.

Installing these on an app table we average 30/hr. So that's $150/hr in profit or $1500/day for our standard day in just those. We are a small operation so those numbers are good for us... your mileage may vary.

Your numbers are incredibly understated on the labor/overhead side of the ledger. If you have the gear, material storage, purchasing power and staff size to knock the cost of the material, labor, time, etc.. down that far, you're a bigger shop with high speed grand format capability than you're copping to here.

The cost of that level of productivity must be included in the equation. I also don't believe you have the kind of staff that can mount a 4'x4' sheet of vinyl to coro in 2 minutes each over the span of several consecutive hours. Do you chain them to the machine and not pay them anything near a family wage?

The rest of your numbers are all over the map and hard to comprehend. Nobody in their right mind factors in as a norm, a 10 hour work day dedicated to pure productivity. I'd have to be here about 15 hours to actually be productively working only on signs to reach 10 hours of "productivity" in a day. I don't know how you figure your idea of a work day, but it seems at odds with what most "small" businesses experience.

Part of it is bragging I think, but if you can mount 30 of these in an hour with even a conservative productive time of about 6 hours per day unless you are a real slave driver, how often do you actually get 180 to do in one day?

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Tell them next month it goes up to $45 each no matter how many he orders above 20 signs.


Wait a few minutes let him huff & puff & tell him you stay at $40 since you have already agreed on that price & you wont even think about them at any less.

When customers moan about your already bottom dollar prices raise them more they huff & puff more you raise.

...NO.. is the best word in the english language, also relieves stress better to.

 

[TimToad]

Jesus. At $40 each on coro ... I would need to sell 50 at that price just to make it worth my time. maybe if they also bought a bunch of other stuff too or were repeat customers i would sell it to them at that ... maybe.

What other type of jobs for under $2,000 do you not even want to consider?

To me, I've got equipment to pay for, an employee who prefers to be busy instead of waiting around for the next "cool" sign to come in the door and we have overhead to consider. Not to mention, my ulcers, high blood pressure and stress related illnesses require massive amounts of adult beverages, occasional weekends away and a decent standard of living to make all this glamour and refinement in choosing customers worth it.

If it walks in the door and its suited for our talents and equipment, we'll take a crack at it.

I just did 10 of these 4'x4's on 4mm coro the other day for a local candidate for $62 each and they took 20 minutes per on the flatbed to print, we cut them to size in about 15 minutes total and my ink usage gauges barely moved. I would have done 20 for $50 and not a cent less. I've got my limit on how low I'll go.

I'll let the folks willing to leverage their entire financial futures and waking hours on the pursuit of acquiring bigger, better and faster equipment all the time and the "growth" and "commodity" ( code for high volume, reduce labor costs at all turns ) business model have at it.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Your numbers are incredibly understated on the labor/overhead side of the ledger. If you have the gear, material storage, purchasing power and staff size to knock the cost of the material, labor, time, etc.. down that far, you're a bigger shop with high speed grand format capability than you're copping to here.

The cost of that level of productivity must be included in the equation. I also don't believe you have the kind of staff that can mount a 4'x4' sheet of vinyl to coro in 2 minutes each over the span of several consecutive hours. Do you chain them to the machine and not pay them anything near a family wage?

The rest of your numbers are all over the map and hard to comprehend. Nobody in their right mind factors in as a norm, a 10 hour work day dedicated to pure productivity. I'd have to be here about 15 hours to actually be productively working only on signs to reach 10 hours of "productivity" in a day. I don't know how you figure your idea of a work day, but it seems at odds with what most "small" businesses experience.

Part of it is bragging I think, but if you can mount 30 of these in an hour with even a conservative productive time of about 6 hours per day unless you are a real slave driver, how often do you actually get 180 to do in one day?

No bragging at all... have you used an application table? Roll the printed roll over the coro, lower roller, cut sheet off, fold back liner, roll left, roll right, trim, done.

My numbers are not understated at all. $9.99 per 4x8 sheet of coro ($8 if I order half a pallet), oracal 3640 vinyl at .16/sq ft, ink/printheads/machine cost at $0.29/sq ft, shop rate at $82.50/hr / 30 × 2 for delays. Perfectly founded and we are a small shop, 3 family members all owners. We are open 12 hours a day and between 3 of us we can put in a full 10 hours of production.

 

[TimToad]

Well, good for you and the other family members none of whom must have kids that ever get sick, need a ride to a game, call in sick, take a vacation, have equipment go down, have materials not show up, have to answer the myriad of phone calls and emails per day from the tire kickers, salespeople, folks looking for jobs, customers needing assistance, do the books, balance or reconcile Quickbooks or a checkbook, chase down deadbeat customers, go out and do sales calls, etc...

Forgive my sarcasm, its a bad character trait of mine, but I feel honored that you are even taking a few minutes out of your hectic day to grace me with your responses.

Or any of the other number of non-productive things that interrupt the day of 99% of the rest of us schmucks in the small business world.

More power to the three of you for forgoing any semblance of enjoying life and thinking only of producing lots and lots of cheap signs for incredibly long hours each and every day. I guess none of you are affected by the cost of electricity working that long of a day in the incredible heat with all that equipment running for 10 hours a day. I didn't see that factored into your overhead equation. I've got about a 3,000 sq. foot shop and our juice bill is over $375.00 per month like clockwork.

I applaud you and look forward to reading more about your feats of wonder and extraordinary profitability.

Bravo!

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Sorry you work in a state that bends you over and drives your costs up. We pay much less then you in electricity, we average half that and have a smaller space. My costs are all factored in to my overhead... would you like to see my SignVOX shop rate sheet?

We all have families, we all have time off. In a world of automation... leverage the tools available to you. We use SignVOX and quickbooks, pay a CPA to balance our books, use a collection agency to chase late funds, and on and on. Stop wasting time "running" your business and leverage low cost services.

 

[Rick]

I have to hand it too you icex, you are a lot more patient
than I am, I would have had this guy walk a long time ago.

When I get clients that tick me off, (like this one would)
I usually spend the money I made on something stupid.

I think $2.16 bucks a foot is wayyyy to cheap. Unless you cater
to this type of work, I can't see a mom and pop sign shop doing
well with that type of pricing. You can't compete with the quickie
wholesale sign mills if you are a full service shop.

 

[OldPaint]

Sorry you work in a state that bends you over and drives your costs up. We pay much less then you in electricity, we average half that and have a smaller space. My costs are all factored in to my overhead... would you like to see my SignVOX shop rate sheet?

We all have families, we all have time off. In a world of automation... leverage the tools available to you. We use SignVOX and quickbooks, pay a CPA to balance our books, use a collection agency to chase late funds, and on and on. Stop wasting time "running" your business and leverage low cost services.

SO BASICALLY..........YOU ARE WORKING FOR ALL OF THE......LOW COST SERVICES))))))))) and the producer of the printer, and the supplier of its expendable materials))))))))$$$$$$$$$$ so you make a $100k a year........when its all figured out.....after paying everyone else......you made LESS THEN I DID.........with a brush and paint))))))
i can see that easily enough........
AS A DINOSAUR...........of what was a very "profitable" business and it now has turned into a........... as someone else put it a BUNCH OF SCHMUCKS..........all beating each other up on price to make a FEW PENNIES)))))))
and working HARDER FOR LESS MONEY...........THEN I(as a dinosaur ever did)
like i said..........i may do less then all of ya.........but if iam not making 50% or better profit.....I DONT NEED THE PRACTICE)))))

 

[TimToad]

I don't want to engage in topic drift, but these last few posts have caused me to bring up a deeply related topic that none of us seem to want to address, the intrinsic value of the advertising that should be included in the cost of a sign. I don't see where political signs should be excluded from that discussion.

The "commodity" approach sign producers rarely or never seem to factor that in, while I notice many of the so called dinosaurs (myself included among them) at least try to look at it as a part of the price of everything we do. I think what ends up happening is we all swim in the same pool and we who think it should be included, often end up having to back it out because the "commodity" high volume, lowest price producers force our hands with their sans intrinsic value pricing usually being the key difference in the bidding. The "commodity" approach producers throw insults around like calling us dinosaurs, living in the past and such, but in the end we end up losing because the true value of the advertising we create isn't being fully paid for, which drives the entire market down.

The winners in this oversight and downward pressure on overall pricing? The hard driving, loyalty devoid, low price above all other factors customers, the equipment and consumables dealers and sales reps and the bankers and leaseholders carrying the loans on all the equipment that anyone wanting to survive in such a hostile environment "must have" in order to keep up with the Jones'.

Sign and graphics workers and employees also end up losing ground as their primarily bottom line oriented employers try to trim costs wherever possible to stay afloat while affording more, bigger and faster automation equipment. The actual skillsets required to work in a 21st century "sign shop" of that type resemble a Kinko's franchise store than an independent, multi-faceted, creativity driven, community anchored enterprise like a traditional sign shop.

 

[Rick]

I don't want to engage in topic drift, but these last few posts have caused me to bring up a deeply related topic that none of us seem to want to address, the intrinsic value of the advertising that should be included in the cost of a sign. I don't see where political signs should be excluded from that discussion.

The "commodity" approach sign producers rarely or never seem to factor that in, while I notice many of the so called dinosaurs (myself included among them) at least try to look at it as a part of the price of everything we do. I think what ends up happening is we all swim in the same pool and we who think it should be included, often end up having to back it out because the "commodity" high volume, lowest price producers force our hands with their sans intrinsic value pricing usually being the key difference in the bidding. The "commodity" approach producers throw insults around like calling us dinosaurs, living in the past and such, but in the end we end up losing because the true value of the advertising we create isn't being fully paid for, which drives the entire market down.

The winners in this oversight and downward pressure on overall pricing? The hard driving, loyalty devoid, low price above all other factors customers, the equipment and consumables dealers and sales reps and the bankers and leaseholders carrying the loans on all the equipment that anyone wanting to survive in such a hostile environment "must have" in order to keep up with the Jones'.

Sign and graphics workers and employees also end up losing ground as their primarily bottom line oriented employers try to trim costs wherever possible to stay afloat while affording more, bigger and faster automation equipment. The actual skillsets required to work in a 21st century "sign shop" of that type resemble a Kinko's franchise store than an independent, multi-faceted, creativity driven, community anchored enterprise like a traditional sign shop.

You forgot....

"All the while crowdsourcing copied and/or mediocre design work devoid of concept or process by overseas designers to clients, most who are incapable of coming up with an idea, let alone seeing a good one"

Most here are "replicators" so cutting cost to be competitive (driving down pricing at the same time) is their main objective.

 

[icex]

Figured I'd post a update.

Got the 20 sign order, guy says how fast can you have them done, then when I tell him a few days he looks at me and says can you keep them until a week before election???????? WHAT?

Now, it's get them done ASAP and they may order 20 more off of you. Ok. Whatever.

He then called and asked for a 4x8 price. Told him I sell them all day long at $100 but would give it to him for $80. He tells me that a local competitor said they would do it for $50 one side 75 double. I politely tell him that those are screen printed, we are not equipt to screen print large signs and that ours is digital printed and includes a picture on it. He tells me I need to get better equipment to get my prices lower.

Some people.

 

[TXFB.INS]

with comments like that he would be fired and those 20 signs are not being charged a rental fee


BTW that is ridiculously low on 48 x 96.

 

[OldPaint]

LIKE I SAID..........workin harder to make a few pennies on the dollar..........
4' X 8' @ $100 is ridiculous!!!!! at $50........ITS STUPID)))))
here again we see what this "mcDonalds model" selling has taken a PROFITABLE BUSINESS into the toilet.
today there is NO PRECEIVED VALUE!!!!! to anything.
as a COMMODITY.......he who sell the cheapest will sell the most.............is the norm.
in all my years most signage i have done was based on SQUARE FOOT pricing. and a long time ago when i 1st started full time.........someone told me
ANYTHING going out the door at less then $5 sq foot............WAS LOSING MONEY, or leaving money on the table FOR ME!!!!!!!!! i have stuck by this in most jobs i do. even for R.T.A. vinyl i cut/weed/tape........i get $7-8 a sq foot!!!!!
i dont work for PENNIES... if i wanted to do that i would be flippin burgers at some fast food place.
a 4'x 8' is 32 sq feet.............at $10 sq ft it is $320.00! at $5 sq ft it is $160.00. so to make this understandable to the $100 AND $50 ones....YOU AINT MAKIN ANY MONEY.......
AT $100 for a 4 X 8.........comes out to $3.12 sq ft and at $50 it $1.56 sq ft!!!!
lets just hold out at $5 sq ft...........now $160.00 YOUR PROFIT....... is in there. on coro............YOUR MAKING A WAGE.
at $100 your just running the printer....at $50.......ITS LOSING MONEY!!!!

 

[GVP]

$40? Madness.

 

[icex]

In this area $100 is the going rate due to the economy. I wish we could get 200 or so but not here.

LIKE I SAID..........workin harder to make a few pennies on the dollar..........
4' X 8' @ $100 is ridiculous!!!!! at $50........ITS STUPID)))))
here again we see what this "mcDonalds model" selling has taken a PROFITABLE BUSINESS into the toilet.
today there is NO PRECEIVED VALUE!!!!! to anything.
as a COMMODITY.......he who sell the cheapest will sell the most.............is the norm.
in all my years most signage i have done was based on SQUARE FOOT pricing. and a long time ago when i 1st started full time.........someone told me
ANYTHING going out the door at less then $5 sq foot............WAS LOSING MONEY, or leaving money on the table FOR ME!!!!!!!!! i have stuck by this in most jobs i do. even for R.T.A. vinyl i cut/weed/tape........i get $7-8 a sq foot!!!!!
i dont work for PENNIES... if i wanted to do that i would be flippin burgers at some fast food place.
a 4'x 8' is 32 sq feet.............at $10 sq ft it is $320.00! at $5 sq ft it is $160.00. so to make this understandable to the $100 AND $50 ones....YOU AINT MAKIN ANY MONEY.......
AT $100 for a 4 X 8.........comes out to $3.12 sq ft and at $50 it $1.56 sq ft!!!!
lets just hold out at $5 sq ft...........now $160.00 YOUR PROFIT....... is in there. on coro............YOUR MAKING A WAGE.
at $100 your just running the printer....at $50.......ITS LOSING MONEY!!!!

 

[player]

A bunch of guys fighting over a pork chop.