Small shop trying to get first printer.

[Magnum Graphics]

Found a Mutoh Rockhopper 38 aka Falcon Outdoor Jr. for $1500 that is reasonably close to us.

Can you guys say this is a relatively good beginners machine?

I understand it's an older machine and the heads may be getting scarce.And that some people truly cant recommend Mutoh's.

But I gotta start somewhere. We did a study of our invoices to see how valuable a smaller machine might be for us. We found that %75 of our orders are less than 24" wide.

So we are sure a smaller machine would really help our business. And we wouldn't have to go into debt at a time when sign shops are dropping like flies in my area.

So if any can speak to value of the 38" rockhopper, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks very much.

 

[FatCat]

I would strongly urge you NOT to consider a Falcon series printer. If you go with Mutoh, you really need to look at a Valuejet model. If you read some of the posts here in the Mutoh section, you will see LOTS of posts about people having problems with the Falcon series. They are old technology and seem to have a number of issues that they fixed with the Valuejet line.

I realize $1500 is tempting, but you really need to look beyond that cost as solvent machines cost money to own and operate. Do not buy it if you can't see it print NO MATTER WHAT THE SELLER SAYS OR PROMISES. Does it print correctly, does the test pattern shows all nozzles firing, and is there nothing else wrong with the machine? A bad head, bad pump or capping station, perhaps a bad board or anything else wrong with the machine will cost at LEAST several hundred dollars and more likely a couple thousand dollars to fix. Plus, you didn't mention if it came with a RIP which is the software needed to actually print. (If there is no RIP figure in at least another $1,000 for that.)

Unless you're already doing a minimum of $5k/month in sales with solvent printing alone I would not suggest you get that printer. It will do nothing but cost you money and headaches. Sub out your print work until you can truly afford it.

 

[CS-SignSupply-TT]

TO BUY or NOT TO BUY???

I would strongly urge you NOT to consider a Falcon series printer. If you go with Mutoh, you really need to look at a Valuejet model. If you read some of the posts here in the Mutoh section, you will see LOTS of posts about people having problems with the Falcon series. They are old technology and seem to have a number of issues that they fixed with the Valuejet line.

I realize $1500 is tempting, but you really need to look beyond that cost as solvent machines cost money to own and operate. Do not buy it if you can't see it print NO MATTER WHAT THE SELLER SAYS OR PROMISES. Does it print correctly, does the test pattern shows all nozzles firing, and is there nothing else wrong with the machine? A bad head, bad pump or capping station, perhaps a bad board or anything else wrong with the machine will cost at LEAST several hundred dollars and more likely a couple thousand dollars to fix. Plus, you didn't mention if it came with a RIP which is the software needed to actually print. (If there is no RIP figure in at least another $1,000 for that.)

Unless you're already doing a minimum of $5k/month in sales with solvent printing alone I would not suggest you get that printer. It will do nothing but cost you money and headaches. Sub out your print work until you can truly afford it.

+1,000,000 Use one of the Merchant Members and SUB-OUT your printing until the cash flow is sufficient to justify the purchase of a 54" printer

 

[rushworks graphics]

+1 to the above advice.

 

[Fatboy]

I would strongly urge you NOT to consider a Falcon series printer. If you go with Mutoh, you really need to look at a Valuejet model. If you read some of the posts here in the Mutoh section, you will see LOTS of posts about people having problems with the Falcon series. They are old technology and seem to have a number of issues that they fixed with the Valuejet line.

I realize $1500 is tempting, but you really need to look beyond that cost as solvent machines cost money to own and operate. Do not buy it if you can't see it print NO MATTER WHAT THE SELLER SAYS OR PROMISES. Does it print correctly, does the test pattern shows all nozzles firing, and is there nothing else wrong with the machine? A bad head, bad pump or capping station, perhaps a bad board or anything else wrong with the machine will cost at LEAST several hundred dollars and more likely a couple thousand dollars to fix. Plus, you didn't mention if it came with a RIP which is the software needed to actually print. (If there is no RIP figure in at least another $1,000 for that.)

Unless you're already doing a minimum of $5k/month in sales with solvent printing alone I would not suggest you get that printer. It will do nothing but cost you money and headaches. Sub out your print work until you can truly afford it.

 

[Circleville Signs]

The biggest reason that most small shops get a printer is because they feel, on some level, that NOT having one makes them "less of a professional".

Here's the facts. You aren't selling sticky vinyl and banners. You are selling your layout skills and design talents. You are selling your marketing prowess and ability to help your customers generate income.

As has been mentioned, until you are subbing out between $3-5k/month (wholesale costs) in print work, YOU DON'T NEED A PRINTER.

Take your $1500 and instead invest it into some new fonts, or some new training. Anything really that will help with what you actually sell. Customers shouldn't see your printer anyways.

 

[Gino]

I think getting this machine is a marvelous idea.

Pay no attention to these Naysayers, they're jealous.

Most of all, you'll be saving the waste dumps a chitload of plastic from becoming part of the countryside.


The main thing about having your own machine is:

• You can first of all have complete control over Quality Control.
• You can keep reproducing prints until you get it right.
• You're getting your feet wet on something cheap.
• You can build a business and have the equipment at your fingertips to do it.
• You don't have a monthly payment plan.
• You don't need to depend on wholesalers to do your work.

And most of all.... ya gotta start somewhere !!


I'd get it before someone else snatches that out from under you.........

 

[Circleville Signs]

Deadpan sarcasm suits you Gino....lol

 

[Gino]

 

[Summit Signs]

Now I'm confused...

I read these posts and it does not add up. Why wait for $5k in wholesale to buy a printer? If I have $1K in wholesale now, I'm making $2000 -3000 off that investment. Using my own printer gives me at least $800 extra per month in my pocket, not the wholesaler's. That's an extra 25 to 40 percent, if my math is right.
If I paid $1500 for the printer, it pays for itself in 2 months. After that it's profit. What's the issue? Maybe I spend time running it, but I get paid for that time. By the time I have $5K in wholesale, I've been losing that extra income for many months. I don't know about you, but most small businesses are pretty interested in keeping that extra $, now about $4000 per month, in their pockets. Now the business is building up capital reserves and can buy a bigger printer with upfront cash, maybe buy a bucket truck for installations. Isn't that how small businesses should grow, sensibly and sustainably?
We are here to learn, and look to you all for informed input, not sarcasm masked as "help" or canned negatives that may not apply to a given situation.
If someone can explain the $5K wholesale minimum in a dollars and sense way, please do so. By the way, he asked specifically for a recommendation for or against the printer itself, not whether it was time for his business to buy one.

Thanks.

 

[10sacer]

You gotta dive in somewhere. We have no idea what your total budget is but remember to factor in EVERYTHING - RIP cost, consumables, printhead cost, 3rd party service, profiling time, media costs, and on and on.

Best thing to do is buy a roll of the material you will run the most and go sit and watch the thing print your entire roll with spot colors, 4 color images, test forms, grayscale charts and see if it can handle churning awau for a few hours non-stop. If you can't do something like that - don't buy it no matter what. You have no recourse after you take posession since its used and I assume its not coming from a dealer.

Also, look to see what you can lease a new model for. Its the end of the year and demo centers around the country are looking to upgrade soon.

Take advantage of IRS 179 if you can and it makes sense.

If you are in Spartanburg, drive down to Greenville and talk to 360 digital or TPM or Z3 and see if they will print for you. I'm up here in Charlotte.

 

[petesign]

Breaking out the "you also need a laminator" part of the discussion that happens in these conversations. Btw... ill have a daige for sale soon

 

[GAC05]

It is a good question.
There is no problem buying used equipment if you have some experience using and maintaining a wide format printer.
With solid footing you'd know what to look for before buying and what would be expected to keep it up and running. Along with the suitability of the equipment for the use you intend.
If you have no experience you are asking for trouble.
When things go wrong (and they will) without the support that comes with a new system you will have to make the call between user error, an old piece of equipment breaking down or an issue with the media.
A $1500.00 printer is bound to have some issues. Knowing how to deal with them will make or break this deal.
There are some real advantages to having your own equipment over outsourcing all of your print jobs. Without at least a little experience they will be hard to capitalize on.

If he has someone who knows their stuff that can take a look at the printer and has some time to help him get up and running I'd say do it.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[AUTO-FX]

Also need to be aware that you would be buying a "general purpose" printer. It may print banners and large format wrap type stuff reasonably well, but it will not satisfy you if you are intending to print a lot of the small, high resolution decals that some people want.
It will certainly give you an education in printing though.

 

[Circleville Signs]

I read these posts and it does not add up. Why wait for $5k in wholesale to buy a printer? If I have $1K in wholesale now, I'm making $2000 -3000 off that investment. Using my own printer gives me at least $800 extra per month in my pocket, not the wholesaler's. That's an extra 25 to 40 percent, if my math is right.
If I paid $1500 for the printer, it pays for itself in 2 months. After that it's profit. What's the issue? Maybe I spend time running it, but I get paid for that time. By the time I have $5K in wholesale, I've been losing that extra income for many months. I don't know about you, but most small businesses are pretty interested in keeping that extra $, now about $4000 per month, in their pockets. Now the business is building up capital reserves and can buy a bigger printer with upfront cash, maybe buy a bucket truck for installations. Isn't that how small businesses should grow, sensibly and sustainably?
We are here to learn, and look to you all for informed input, not sarcasm masked as "help" or canned negatives that may not apply to a given situation.
If someone can explain the $5K wholesale minimum in a dollars and sense way, please do so. By the way, he asked specifically for a recommendation for or against the printer itself, not whether it was time for his business to buy one.

Thanks.

It is this type of thinking that leads to businesses going out of business. Using a wholesale resource you never have to worry about print mistakes, you never have to worry about the time spent loading material, ripping, printing, finished, trimming. That is time that you can spend instead selling and building your business. That extra $800/month you are putting into your pocket is really in the viciinity of $2-3k/month in sales you are missing out on.

 

[TheSnowman]

I do agree that you shouldn't buy a printer until you can justify it, and just sub out to the printers here, because there are some great solutions availabe here that cost you about what it costs in house...however, I am in the situation where I have to have same day turn around with a couple of clients.

If I didn't have my printer, I'd lose those clients which are 90% of my work. That's the only scenario in which I could see justifying it before the point of dumping a merchant member for printing in house.

 

[Mainframe]

Good point.

Some people think that you can buy a printer, take it home and whammy you're a full service sign shop. It's not a DVD player, there is no plug and play. Sure you can play around for as long as you like, but you sure as hell aren't going to be turning it on one minute and the next be putting out work with it. It took me a while to get use to ours and be comfortable printing on all the different types of materials etc.

So realistically speaking, the cost of the printer is a small portion of the investment.

I disagree, I bought my printer and the tech set it up with a cheap roll of vinyl he kept in his truck, after he had it dialed in, he asked me if I had anything I would like printed, I SURE DID! I had a graphic I set up for a customer who came in a couple of days before my printer was to arrive, we dropped it into Versaworks, and printed and cut it with a cut line I had, MY FIRST PRINT I RAN THROUGH MY PRINTER MYSELF I MADE MONEY ON! I had 4- 4x10 banners designed and ready to print for the next day, and I printed them, no problem, I really feel my printer was plug and play, I had been subbing out and had to set files up for them anyway so I didn't have any trouble, that was over 3 years ago and I have printed a lot since, I don't feel it was a very steep learning curve at all. I don't feel like I waste much material. Having your own printer leaves the profit in your pocket where it belongs.

 

[CentralSigns]

If your smart I mean mechanically and have business savvy, you can do OK. You have to have done a pile of market research to see what is the best way to go is, otherwise your competition will get the printer when the bank forecloses on you.

I started with a printer before I had $1k in sales a month, worked for me. It actually opened a few markets we didn't have before. Same day service and knowing an installation screw up can be saved immediately are some benefits of having a printer in-house.

We subbed our printing out to family 2 bus days away, and that was tough, but taught you to get it installed right the first time. And learned a million ways to save a botched job. It was a week waiting for the replacement decals and sometimes longer, don't want to tell that to too many customers. Like "Hey dude you know I got half your can done but I'll be another week drawing the graphic for the other side".

So don't listen to the gallery on the $5K thing, they lost business waiting to get to the magic $ value. Just make sure you know everything about the competition and just do it better faster. An you don't always need a laminator, a big squeegee works fine for small stuff

Oh I know a guy that got a gov contract before he even had a printer. He bought the printer after he was awarded the contract and then bought 2 more with the money he raked in. Right place and time and a little knowledge of the conpetition and markets.

 

[juan45215]

I found a good deal on a Mutoh Falcon Outdoor. All the money I made went to the service technician. I dumped it on ebay and leased a new Mimaki. 5 more payments and it's mine. Never had one service call in 55 months.

 

[4R Graphics]

Buying a printer is a big leap there are lots of things to consider. Example you will need a laminator, rip, inks, media, laminate, cleaning supplies, tech work, etc...

Know We went out and bought a used printer 60" and i have to say that at first we spent a lot of time LEARNING to use this thing and the profiles we replaced heads etc... However the fact that I have my own printer and can print anything I need is a great thing.

I know that at the time i bought my printer there were a few jobs that I couldnt find wholesalers to do (special materials) so it all depends on what kind of jobs and what kind of turn around you need.

Roughlly 50% of our printing is wraps so you really need your own printer (if something gets jacked you can reprint without wholesaler delay).

We also offer wholesale printing to some of the other local shops that dont have a printer.

If you have the capital to buy a printer and have enough work to keep it running at least every other day I say go for it but be ready for a learning curve and delays until you figure it out.

As for the smaller printer I would look at getting nothing less than a 54" as once you get a printer you will find other jobs to do and you will need the bigger printer.

I would really research the printers and go with something perhaps a little newer than the rockhopper look at the valuejets if mutoh and the JV3 SP models for mimaki both good printers and can be found for less than $6000 allday long.

Good luck.

 

[Summit Signs]

I think I get it now. It's about how you view yourself, your business, and your priorities.
A "graphic artist" selling graphics skills and his ability to market others will sub out as much non-graphics work as possible, since that's not his area of expertise or interest. He's willing to pay the wholesaler for his expertise since he does not see doing that job himself as value-added. He tends to both charge more for his work and spend more for what he needs.
A "signmaker" focuses on materials and assembly as much as design, and does as much as he can himself to save money and maintain control. He will learn whatever he needs to in order to save money, since he tends to see himself as a manufacturer, not just an artist. Buy an inexpensive printer, learn to use and maintain it (why hand a wholesaler or tech all his profits?), and make it work for him. He focuses on keeping his prices and debt down and watching the bottom line.
Both models can work, obviously. Just because you are not willing to invest the time to make a starter printer work for you, doesn't mean that someone else shouldn't. The time we spend in our shop prepping files, outputting them to the right format, checking, sending to the wholesaler, going to pick up, etc could easily be spent setting them up and printing them ourselves.
Personally I hope he buys the printer, makes it work, and comes back with financial data showing it was a great decision. More professional constructive support and less sarcastic "I know best; you're an idiot" from the gallery would be nice, too.