1803 Update

[AF]

Back when Red Hat was available for the masses and introduced RPM’s, it was all the rage to recommend Linux to your grandma. But over 25 years later, Linux is the most fractured OS in the world (how many distros now?). BSD offers the only hope for open source Unix-like desktop software but alas it needs decades to get to a point where it will be usable by anyone.

For now, it is a choice between Windows and Mac for the masses.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Back when Red Hat was available for the masses and introduced RPM’s, it was all the rage to recommend Linux to your grandma. But over 25 years later, Linux is the most fractured OS in the world (how many distros now?).

Actually not as many as you would think. There are a lot more that claim to be distros, but are actually Ubuntu based (which in turn is Debian).

25 years ago, it was a sign of geek stardom to get Linux running. It is not the case now.

You have major OEM's (Dell and Lenovo) that ship with Linux as an option on their workstation computers especially. I think you can get Linux on the Yoga line, but don't quote me on that, for the cheaper platforms.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time that you actually seriously tried out Linux? Not on the server, but on the desktop. When was the last time?

BSD offers the only hope for open source Unix-like desktop software but alas it needs decades to get to a point where it will be usable by anyone.

For now, it is a choice between Windows and Max for the masses.

You do realize that Mac is BSD under the hood right?

Well, let me clarify, OSX is based off of Darwin (which is an open source unix-like OS developed by Apple post 2000) and that includes a lot of BSD components, hence why I say it's BSD under the hood.

There is far more in common with Mac OS and Linux then people think. I'm actually running some Apple software directly in my Linux desktop. More so utilities then anything else.

Except for the higher level APIs (like the ones that bind OSX to Mac hardware only), OSX is actually quite a bit open source unix-like project. Because it's posix compatible, almost any of the open source projects that are done by Apple can be compiled and run on Linux and other unix-like variants.


The biggest barrier to entry is choosing the DE. Most new users gravitate to Ubuntu as it is. From there it's the DE. Once you get by that hurdle, everything is really, really simple. The vast majority of any customization that the general user is going to do can be done via gui without any issue. Some DEs provide over the top GUI customization to where you don't have to touch the CLI at all, even for the more complex, which you still have to do on a Mac system. KDE is my favorite.

Outside of that, it is a very stable system and has a pretty decent support cycle (5 yrs on most LTS releases) and 10 years if you go with RHEL (but have to pay for I think 7 yrs of support) or CentOS (community version of RHEL, backed by RH).

I certainly find it far more stable and reliable then my experiences with my dad's Win 10 Enterprise and you have the Mac root user issue as well, but I do believe that has been ironed out by now, but it did have one instance of regression if I recall correctly.

 

[AF]

I currently run Ubuntu, Cent, NetBSD, FreeBSD, PCBsd, Freenas,MAC, Win on various workstations and servers and various versions of those operating systems. For production machines Windows natively runs the associated drivers and software for our machines. Severs are BSD based. Design workstations are Mac and Win with one PCBsd tester and one Ubuntu tester (VMs, native Inkscape and Gimp and whatever else, Wine, jails etc). File servers, web and mail, name servers, etc on any flavor of Linux and BSD.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I currently run Ubuntu, Cent, NetBSD, FreeBSD, PCBsd, Freenas,MAC, Win on various workstations and servers and various versions of those operating systems. For production machines Windows natively runs the associated drivers and software for our machines. Severs are BSD based. Design workstations are Mac and Win with one PCBsd tester and one Ubuntu tester (VMs, native Inkscape and Gimp and whatever else, Wine, jails etc). File servers, web and mail, name servers, etc on any flavor of Linux and BSD.

Something just isn't jiving for me here.

You have someone like me, who is a glorified non geek in every sense of the phrase, who doesn't run everything that you do (I run Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS, FreeNAS, Windows in VMs only ranging from Win 98 to 8.1).

I won't touch a Mac. Ball and chain has one, but I don't use it at all. I actually got headaches from trying to learn my way around the UI of an '08 iMac. The only reason that I actually had it period is that dad bought it and 2 weeks later it was heading to the trash. I used it for a while, put it in storage, brought it out in '14 and put Zorin on it, played with it a bit and now it just sits.

Bare in mind, I never once did any customization on my Windows rigs outside of desktop and screensaver, even back when they had the ability for lots of easy customization. I find Linux exceptionally easy. Exceptionally easy to configure and use and have it be stable, despite the fact that it's very possible to break installs (reminds me of the 9x days of Windows) when you don't know what you are doing. I'm probably closer to the average user then you are based on that post above. Why does it appear that I'm off my rocker.

Somewhere, somehow, something is being undervalued or over estimated on one side or the other. Or possibly both.

 

[AF]

The difference between you and I is that I started on Trash 80’s and have used everything along the way. Punch cards, 5-1/4” floppies, Syquest, Zip Drives, etc. I used Apple II’s when they dominated the PC space, the very first Macintosh and lived through the transition to Next and subsequent dropping of PowerPC. IBM “Clones” until they were rebranded PCs. For my clients, what works best for the situation is what I recommend. When things get serious and they suddenly have hundreds or thousands of employees, they will have in-house dedicated IT departments (or...gasp...remote India-based IT). I still get a chuckle out of young college grads with zero experience on any system except what the college lab used come on scene and want everyone to comply with their limited knowledge of computing / information systems by switching to the only thing they have had exposure to. Millennials are the most difficult bunch to train and present a compelling reason to retire.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The difference between you and I is that I started on Trash 80’s and have used everything along the way. Please nah cards, 5-14” floppies, Syquest, Zip Drives, etc. I used Apple II’s when they dominated the PC space, the very first Macintosh and lived through the transition to Next and subsequent dropping of PowerPC.

I actually started out with MS-DOS, so I started out in the 80s. Even had one of those very early Apple PCs in the 80s as well. No radioshack deals though. Which is what I think you mean by Trash 80s, if I recall correctly. School had DOS. I remember the floppies (both hard and soft). Not Syquest, but I do remember (and we actually still have a few around here somewhere) Zip Drives.

Oh and I did forget, still use tape drives for backups as well.

 

[AF]

You can understand, then, when a person is asking what computer and software to use that they most likely have limited experience and thus should be directed to a more polished ecosystem.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You can understand, then, when a person is asking what computer and software to use that they most likely have limited experience and thus should be directed to a more polished ecosystem.

I think where we differ is what makes up "more polished". Or lack thereof of polish in the first place. Windows ecosystem is far far from polished (projects like KDE Neon and elementaryOS show more polish then the Windows ecosystem), what it does have is a very large ecosystem.

Also, while on one hand I don't like it, ecosystems themselves are changing. It's web centric more then anything and that is typically OS agnostic. The major browsers being used are cross platform and multi-arch. Windows and even OSX are not on the forefront of their respective companies mind (hell, even Canonical is also more focused on cloud centric as well). Desktop is on on the slide. I think eventually it's going to be a niche prosumer market only. Most of your average users are using arm based devices for their computing needs, the biggest one of which is Android (which ironically is a Linux based OS, along with Google's Chromebooks). Rumor is, even Apple is thinking about going to ARM on their desktop/laptops (either that or it's a bargaining position for their contract negotiations with Intel, but if any company knows what it's like to switch archs, it's going to be Apple).

I would say that our ecosystem is going back to more of a dummy terminal type of ecosystem. Has it's pros and cons though.

I think the polish from MS and Apple in the desktop realm have lost their luster just a smidge during recent years.

Bare in mind too, it seems that every other release of Windows seems to have problem elements in it. Win 98, people claimed issues with it and how could we forget the infamous plug and play demo. Although, I never had a problem with it. Then you have ME, aka Mistake Edition. Then Vista (although personally, I liked Vista). 8.1 had some issues. I only had it installed on a tablet, 1st gen Cintiq tablet, so it was fine for me. Now Win 10, I dunno. I am not even on Windows anymore and it's still a PITA to me. Not polished when it comes to stability in my book.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Interesting

All the issues that the site. Although I don't recall seeing broken activations of OS and or programs.

Either way, not a way to deliver a polished system.

 

[AF]

Cross platform has been a goal of software developers for decades. MS has actively undermined cross platform projects through EEE. Java is the classic example. Kerberos is another major example of MS actively sabotaging cross platform compatibility. They still employ EEE despite losing lawsuit after lawsuit. If you are a developer, ANSI C is the most portable code on the planet. But MS doesn’t ship Windows with stdio.h and instead has renamed it so that it breaks every piece of generic code written since the 70s.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Software breaking that I am talking about is MSs own stuff. Plus the activation of their own OS. Even regressed Enterprise to Pro, but re activation fixed that.

That I find unaccepted on a commercial product that forces updates.

Other software breaking, I say is the cost of being bleeding edge. Don't do updates, don't have a production rig on WAN.

MS has actively undermined cross platform projects through EEE.

That's what some people are afraid that MS is doing with Linux via their WSL. The thing that makes me wonder just how big of a concern that is, is just how much focus is MS giving Windows nowadays? With their restructuring, it looks more like they are focused on other things, not so much the PC computing platform that defined their identity for 30+ yrs. They are really selling Azure and the irony is it's almost a 50/50 breakdown on Windows instances and Linux instances on MS' own platform.

I do have to wonder just how much emphasis MS is giving Windows anymore. Computing has definitely changed, I really don't think the desktop/laptop x86 client base for Windows is going to be that big as time goes on. Mainly just prosumers, creative content people (unfortunately that would be us).

 

[AF]

The only thing that MS has restructured is how to bilk money from its customers. The software is the same virus-laden betaware, except now with forced daily updates to make sure third party software is constantly broken.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The only thing that MS has restructured is how to bilk money from its customers. The software is the same virus-laden betaware, except now with forced daily updates to make sure third party software is constantly broken.

I don't disagree with that statement (one of the reasons why I've always tried to use portable programs, even on Linux (a lot of my production programs are either binary build trees or AppImage files (which by the way are "distro" agnostic)), but that started back in the days of DLL Hell).