2 identical flatbed presses - same media profiles?

[ForgeInc]

So we just got our 2nd FB700 installed, and are finding in order to get the colors identical between new machine and old machine we need to create a different profile for the 2nd machine. (old machine is still under warranty and was just serviced and calibrated when the new one was installed)

Does anyone else have any experience with having 2 presses of the exact same make model and being able to use 1 profile for both of them? Seems to me the presses should be outputting exactly the same thing, eliminating the need for separate profiles between them, but I want to get some thoughts from others who might have more experience before talking to our reseller about this and figuring out next steps.

 

[P Wagner]

The best (most accurate) answer is that every device on the workflow is unique, and will (re)produce color differently than every other device. This includes devices of the same make and model.

With that said, I would expect that if the printers are linearized individually, they should be able to share the same ICC profile in most cases to generate highly similar results.

 

[Gino]

If your tech was just there, what did he have to say ?? I'd imagine he'd know better than most.

 

[ForgeInc]

Gino - of course the tech and reseller are gonna say that even though the presses are identical, you should expect slight differences but was hoping others out there might have gone through the same issues. Their current answer was "let the machine "break in" and see what happens.

If we have to profile both machines separately, to me it kinda cancels out one of the main reasons we bought the exact same type of press, to eliminate the need for creating multiple media profiles across printers.

 

[SebastienL]

If your tech was just there, what did he have to say ?? I'd imagine he'd know better than most.

Gino, I mean no offense... but that's the funniest thing I read today!

:ROFLMAO:

 

[Jack Knight1979]

wow - a break in period is about the lamest response I've heard.

 

[signage]

ForgeInc that is the reason for Color profiling, if every machine made by a manufacture printed the same you would not need to create ICC profiles for your machine. They would be able to send you the profiles for all medias!

 

[Dice]

Did you check to make sure they are on the same firmware version?

They have changed the motherboard and a bit on the most resent ones, you might want to check to make sure that both are the same and get hp to change the one that is not.

HP is good but you have to push them.

 

[National Sign Co. - Print]

Even the strongest of profiles cannot insure 100% accuracy between identical machines. Way to many factors involved for machines to be 100% dead on the money. The results will not be very far off and well within tolerence of what is acceptable but no matter what in digital print there will be a slight variance. If you are set on looking for a slight color difference you will find it....

Could be one of many many factors.. the head volts, Ink sets, filters wear life span, In UV especially the lamp hours, Operators. Jets/nozzles firing, Media batches the list goes on and on...

We have several duplicate machines and do not expect 100% color accuracy all the time. Color is very very close and only usually the most anal will see a slight variance but to expect dead on nuts results ( digital print and especially UV) is not gonna happen....

Having duplicate machines is great for any production shop. I would look at benefits of increased capabilities for having throughput well over exact color matches... With that being said we run many projects on the same 2 machines with no issues but there is a very slight color variance which is nothing to do with a solid color profile it is attributed the actual machines in production.. Our profiles across the board are as spot on and accurate as you can get....

 

[ForgeInc]

ForgeInc that is the reason for Color profiling, if every machine made by a manufacture printed the same you would not need to create ICC profiles for your machine. They would be able to send you the profiles for all medias!

Crazy talk. There are a zillion different medias and each printer will be in completely different conditions/situations so I don't buy that argument.

But...you're saying that we should expect outputs on 2 versions of the exact same printer, using the exact same media profile and media to be different?

I mean...I come from the design side and honestly don't have much experience w/production so maybe I am expecting too much, but if the machines and profiles are identical, in the exact same operating conditions shouldn't the outputs be identical?

Would love to hear first hand experience from others who have multiple models of the exact same machine.

 

[signage]

Like Mike said they will be different, Why do you think you get head ranks for heads? They should be close but not exact!

 

[Gino]

Heck, we've already re-printed something a day or so later and because of some condition beyond our control, it's not dead balls on. Can't really be seen by the most, but there sometimes is a difference on the very same machine.

Like mentioned, heaters, U/V life, air conditions, new batch of ink or some other minute incidental, could easily make two different machines print ever so slightly off. I would imagine, don't intermix jobs on the two machines. Keep one for selective tasks and keep the other for the remaining tasks, then down the road, if you have to print a replacement or make a correction, you have a better chance of not mixing them up.

 

[ForgeInc]

Interesting...I'd be OK with slight shift but ours are pretty different. Right now I wouldn't feel comfortable selling the same job printed on both presses (unless we use our 2 different media profiles for each machine, then it's dang near exact). I guess if we have to make 2 profiles to get there we will, just seems like we shouldn't have to and an extra hassle. As I mentioned it's a big reason we got an identical machine, to eliminate another step of profiling...well dang!

Thanks for learnin me....

 

[National Sign Co. - Print]

Interesting...I'd be OK with slight shift but ours are pretty different. Right now I wouldn't feel comfortable selling the same job printed on both presses (unless we use our 2 different media profiles for each machine, then it's dang near exact). I guess if we have to make 2 profiles to get there we will, just seems like we shouldn't have to and an extra hassle. As I mentioned it's a big reason we got an identical machine, to eliminate another step of profiling...well dang!

Thanks for learnin me....

Crazy color shift. Who knows what the hell HP did between your buying of 2 of the machines... May be best to have 2 profiles to make sure all is well.

Pain in the a@$ but least than pissing up a rope blaming HP... and getting sh_* done...

 

[HulkSmash]

Are they close to each other? Kept in the same environment?
Same room? If not that could be an issue. But I'm sure you have that covered.

 

[ForgeInc]

Are they close to each other? Kept in the same environment?
Same room? If not that could be an issue. But I'm sure you have that covered.

Yup, right next to each other...just a forklift width between em!

 

[miker]

We deal with this issue on a daily basis. We have 2 Vutek GS's right next to each other. 95% of the time they are "close enough" color wise. However, when comparing prints one of the machines is always a touch more cyan and yellow.

We use the same RIP, the same ink, the same material. Basically, there is enough variation between printheads and the vacuum system that is we need a dead match we will print off one machine and color correct of the other.

 

[miker]

additionally, we have 3 HP5500s which are even WORSE using the same profile, and for those we use separate profiles and have to color match in prepress if using multiple printers for the same job.

Back to the vuteks.....and all piezo head machines for that matter...... voltage is used to control both dot placement and size. Most machines are calibrated with dot placement in mind because it is visibly more apparent in a print.

 

[Fastsigns2041]

Consider yourself pretty lucky if they very close. My 25500 prints a different color on the left than it does on the right!

 

[Rooster]

You need to create what's called a device link profile. It reads the basic profile from both machines and creates a new one that matches the colour between the the machines. Essentially uses takes the machine with the smaller gamut as a base and throttles down the profile of the larger gamut machine.