3M 8508 alternative

[NikiLee]

Hello, hello!
A month or so ago our vendor let us know that 3M would be changing the "construction" of the 8508 laminate. "Starting in mid-August, the 8508 overlaminate will move from a cast vinyl to a non-cast vinyl construction. The film will be slightly thicker (moving from 2.3mils to 2.6mils) and may exhibit a slightly lower gloss level that is still within our current 8508 specification.
I've also noticed that the laminate has started to burn at around the 2 year mark where as we used to get a solid 4-5 years before it started to burn.

I'm searching for some recommendations / alternatives - Our vendors are recommending 8518, but that price point is 3 times the cost of the 8508 and I just cant justify that for what we do (getting to that shortly) and Grimco suggest using their Briteline wrapCAST, which is closer/better price point BUT I don't want to be exclusive to one material/vendor and then get caught in a bind and not able to get laminate from any other source.

Here's our details:
· Las Vegas (so dealing with heat and long periods of direct sun exposure)
· using 3M IJ35c vinyl | Printing on an HP Latex 360
· about 80% of our sign work is commercial real estate signage - So 4x8 sheets of MDO with printed/laminated vinyl applied, in some cases Aluminum Composite faces w/printed laminated vinyl applied ((side-thought) also wondering if the metal might cause the laminate to burn faster because it gets hotter )

Thoughts, recommendations, opinions etc. are welcome! Please and thank you!

-Niki

 

[ikarasu]

We hate 8508, even before the change... and Ive heard with the change its more of a matte as well, I expect 3M will see a drop in 8508 sales.

IJ35 is a calander... why is grimco recommending a cast?! Wrapcast is nice, however I wouldn't use it on IJ35.... Or for realtor signs. Their brightline UV overlam is good enough, We've done hundreds of rolls of it and havent experienced any yellowing. and will be half the price. 8518 and any wrap overlam is overkill for IJ35....

If you dont want to use brightline because Grimco owns it... Look into other vendors.

3M 8048 - 4 year overlam. This will be a bit more than 8508... It's a non PVC product, and many (Including me) have found it to be really nice on intermediate vinyls.

Oraguard 215 - This is a 5 year... We havent used it on IJ35, but we've gone through a few hundred rolls with no failures using Oracal media.



Avery isnt a bad brand either. But we dont use much of it, so I cant recommend a product from them - personally I'd go with 3M 8048, then Oraguard 215, then brightline UV.

 

[NikiLee]

We hate 8508, even before the change... and Ive heard with the change its more of a matte as well, I expect 3M will see a drop in 8508 sales.

IJ35 is a calander... why is grimco recommending a cast?! Wrapcast is nice, however I wouldn't use it on IJ35.... Or for realtor signs. Their brightline UV overlam is good enough, We've done hundreds of rolls of it and havent experienced any yellowing. and will be half the price. 8518 and any wrap overlam is overkill for IJ35....

If you dont want to use brightline because Grimco owns it... Look into other vendors.

3M 8048 - 4 year overlam. This will be a bit more than 8508... It's a non PVC product, and many (Including me) have found it to be really nice on intermediate vinyls.

Oraguard 215 - This is a 5 year... We havent used it on IJ35, but we've gone through a few hundred rolls with no failures using Oracal media.

Avery isnt a bad brand either. But we dont use much of it, so I cant recommend a product from them - personally I'd go with 3M 8048, then Oraguard 215, then brightline UV.

Thanks for the reply!
Honestly, we've used IJ35c from the start, it installs nice, we've had minor problems (lifting/peeling - started using edge sealer. And burning primarily) with our combo over the years and have gotten a decent life out of the combo until now. The reason we're looking for cast instead of calendar laminate is because of the shrinkage/peeling and ultimately the yellowing/burning. (heat may also be a contributing factor here) The Calendar vinyl/calendar lam combo seems to separate from each other and the vinyl also ends up peeling back from the sign because of that, with a cast laminate we get a lot longer life, especially when people want changes and then we have to start layering up the vinyl on top of each other. Does that make sense? Agree that 8518 is overkill, was looking at 8418, but don't know much about it.

As far as the vendor, we have a few options and bounce around based on availability, but our Go-To's tend to be Montroy & Grimco, occasionally Fellers, and N. Glantz - and there's a few more but these are the main ones. (Big city, lots of options)

I could be wrong, but I think I heard they are discontinuing 8048 - my vendors have no inventory of it, or this is an option I would've tried.

Thanks for the other suggestions!

 

[White Haus]

I thought 8508 was always a calendared product??

Anyways, we exclusively use 8418G now for gloss laminate. It's going to cost more than 8508, but less than 8518.

Overkill on some products yes, but only stocking/using one gloss laminate has been working well for us and allows us to streamline our production as we use it for 90% of our jobs.
I've never really trusted calendared gloss laminate as it always ends up failing/curling/burning.

For matte laminate (parking signs, interior signs etc.) we use Avery DOL 2080 matte and it's been solid. Get a tiny bit of shrinkage over time but have never had an outright failure. It might be worth looking at the 2060 gloss version, I'm assuming the price point would be better than 8508.

I was actually just looking at the briteline stuff yesterday thinking we could possibly start using that in place of 8418G on less crucial projects, but realized Grimco charges more for it than we're currently paying for 8418G.

 

[MarkSnelling]

I've got a product from Drytac which is available in a 5 or 7 year polymeric calendared construction. The 7 year film is awesome. It is in the same pricing range as well. Paired with their perm, 7 year air-egress vinyl and you've got a nice sandwich. Spec sheets are attached. This stuff is made in Toronto. Let me know if you'd like pricing or test rolls (test rolls are free they just want a UPS number to cover the few bucks to get the test rolls to you)

I stock it in Nevada, too.

 

[Bxtr]

Have you looked into Kapco? We use them for a bunch of our laminates, mainly on calendared vinyl like IJ35c. They make their own laminates and vinyls, we get free shipping on even one roll of laminate.
I can't speak to the burning either but I'm also based in South Dakota so not near the heat/sun you get.
We use 8418G w/IJ175c, the only complaint I get is from the people loading into the laminator...

 

[ikarasu]

8048 isn't discontinued, it's just not a commonly stocked item... But Grimco can bring it in for you. I like the gloss level of 8048... Its glossier than 8508 is, And it has zero "slivering / Matting" on it. Theres a few people on here who use it exclusively with IJ35/40... Hundreds of rolls a year, and so far no issues. We dont use it that often anymore because one of our local vendors has an in house brand thats rated for 5 years and is super cheap... So we use it on anything we dont intend to last longer than 5 years.



8508 Was considered a cast... It was a thick, garbage cast, but it was a cast. It was weird because 8510 and 8509 were calandered, but 8508 was a cast, up until recently.

 

[JBurton]

Arlon 3420 satin is what I pair with ij35c, the satin is always uniform and adds just enough matte-ness to hide any imperfections without looking out of place like a matte would. It also pairs very well with our matthews satin paint in terms of finish.

 

[Mike Paul]

Just get 3M-CV3 and 8518 cast lam.
Charge accordingly.


Or use cheap calandared vinyl.

Too much work to remove high end cast laminate to put In crap lam…

Charge accordingly

 

[Precision]

We only carry 3 vinyls and 2 lams.
3M Ij180cv3
3M Ij35c
Windowmark 70/30 perf

8518
8520

Who cares how much cheaper a roll is when you have multiple rolls of specialty vinyl you won't use consistently.

On flat surfaces try the Ij35c w 8518 lam. Done hundreds of truck decals - zero returns.

Aluminum signs - Ij35c/8518 - last them for years. I have one I made on our community fence. 8 years old still looks new.

Charge accordingly.

 

[vondegroot]

Hasn't IJ35 become a questionable product lately?

Arlon makes some great vinyl as well.

 

[Precision]

Hasn't IJ35 become a questionable product lately?

Arlon makes some great vinyl as well.

No problems with Ij35c here. It's all how you use it.

The Arlon name helps saving money, but is not half the sales tool that saying your an all 3m shop does, when pricing accordingly, in my opinion

Wrapcast is no comparison to Ij180cv3. Less tack and fades and fails faster in the California heat. Removal isn't any easier either.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

We hate 8508, even before the change... and Ive heard with the change its more of a matte as well, I expect 3M will see a drop in 8508 sales.

IJ35 is a calander... why is grimco recommending a cast?! Wrapcast is nice, however I wouldn't use it on IJ35.... Or for realtor signs. Their brightline UV overlam is good enough, We've done hundreds of rolls of it and havent experienced any yellowing. and will be half the price. 8518 and any wrap overlam is overkill for IJ35....

If you dont want to use brightline because Grimco owns it... Look into other vendors.

3M 8048 - 4 year overlam. This will be a bit more than 8508... It's a non PVC product, and many (Including me) have found it to be really nice on intermediate vinyls.

Oraguard 215 - This is a 5 year... We havent used it on IJ35, but we've gone through a few hundred rolls with no failures using Oracal media.



Avery isnt a bad brand either. But we dont use much of it, so I cant recommend a product from them - personally I'd go with 3M 8048, then Oraguard 215, then brightline UV.

Oracal 215 lasts a very long time, on par with cast, but they raised the price so high that it's hard to justify.

 

[NikiLee]

I thought 8508 was always a calendared product??

Anyways, we exclusively use 8418G now for gloss laminate. It's going to cost more than 8508, but less than 8518.

Overkill on some products yes, but only stocking/using one gloss laminate has been working well for us and allows us to streamline our production as we use it for 90% of our jobs.
I've never really trusted calendared gloss laminate as it always ends up failing/curling/burning.

For matte laminate (parking signs, interior signs etc.) we use Avery DOL 2080 matte and it's been solid. Get a tiny bit of shrinkage over time but have never had an outright failure. It might be worth looking at the 2060 gloss version, I'm assuming the price point would be better than 8508.

I was actually just looking at the briteline stuff yesterday thinking we could possibly start using that in place of 8418G on less crucial projects, but realized Grimco charges more for it than we're currently paying for 8418G.

Thank you for the recommendations! Ordered a roll of 8418 to try out - This is us, trying to streamline production for quick/cheap jobs but also a decent quality for the longer exposed jobs, like a happy meet in the middle instead of switching out the substrates constantly. We're also trying out the Grimco briteline product to have as an alternative. I just don't want to be stuck up river without a paddle if for some reason we cant get it from them and NO ONE else carries it.