A better profile?

[Colin]

I had a friend over last night who is a hobbyist photographer, and who is very knowledgable on the whole realm of colour management, especially as it pertains to photography. We were doing some test prints (photos) on my Neschen Monet canvas. We tried numerous different settings, using the Clip & Tile feature in Versaworks.

The results were not as good as his own smaller, aqueous printer which does print on canvas (he brought samples).


Knowing that a 4-colour solvent printer will never be as good as other printers which can achieve a better gamut, he still felt that the particular profile that was made for the Monet canvas might be the problem, and that a better profile could provide better results.

Your thoughts?

 

[HaroldDesign]

If you're stuck using canned profiles (no spectrophotometer) try using profiles meant for a different medium or brand name. I haven't found any profiles off the shelf that work as well as they should.

 

[Colin]

I haven't found any profiles off the shelf that work as well as they should.

Gah! You would think that each media manufacturer would make the best dang profile possible.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I have run across the same issues with canvas, the prints are fine for 99% of people out there, but will never be acceptable to a professional photographer, I'm sure a custom profile will help, but in the end, a solvent printer is the wrong tool for the job if you are looking to print these for picky types.

 

[eye4clr]

The best profile is the one you make for yourself. Everything else is an inferior substitute.

 

[Colin]

With canvas, the prints are fine for 99% of people out there, but will never be acceptable to a professional photographer. I'm sure a custom profile will help, but in the end, a solvent printer is the wrong tool for the job if you are looking to print these for picky types.

For sure. He was considering me and my 54" printer for larger prints that he may want to do. His printer is limited to something like 17" wide x whatever length (does take roll stock).

He's suggesting that we go "halfers" on this.

Good idea?

 

[J Hill Designs]

He's suggesting that we go "halfers" on...

I prefer to call it "halfsies"

 

[rushworks graphics]

aqueous printers are what proffesionals use for canvas and photos. you will never get perfect or brillant results for most photographers out there using an eco solvent.

for the average joe who wants canvas or pics/posters an eco solvent is fine and will do the job.

if you want to start producing prints for photographers you need a dedicated aqueous printer

 

[wedosigns]

Color monki only calibrates your screen and does not create profiles for your printer. Yes it is a good start in color management, but I would suggest the huey pro from x-rite for monitor calibration. It does the same thing as color munki but also measures the light in your room to determin the color on the screen. It is also way cheaper!http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANTONE-HUE...726?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e67765f1e

 

[Colin]

aqueous printers are what proffesionals use for canvas and photos. you will never get perfect or brillant results for most photographers out there using an eco solvent.

Yes, I've acknowledged that.

If you want to start producing prints for photographers you need a dedicated aqueous printer

Yes, but my question is about the profile, and whether another one could give better results.

 

[CanuckSigns]

For sure. He was considering me and my 54" printer for larger prints that he may want to do. His printer is limited to something like 17" wide x whatever length (does take roll stock).

He's suggesting that we go "halfers" on this.

Good idea?

If he is willing to pay for half of it, it sounds good to me, that looks like it would be useful for profiling other media as well as canvas.

 

[rushworks graphics]

Yes, I've acknowledged that.




Yes, but my question is about the profile, and whether another one could give better results.

yeah but thats the thing. having a profile that you can do yourself may well and probably will give a slightly better or acceptable result, but, your using eco solvent and your limited to the color gamut output.

basically if you want great results for this type of thing your using the wrong printer. your going to have to get a really good color managment system in place to make your own profile to get better results than what your getting now but its still not going to be better than dedicated aqueos printers.

 

[Colin]

....but its still not going to be better than dedicated aqueos printers.

Yup, I'm not entertaining the idea that a 4-colour solvent printer will even match an aqueous printer, let alone beat it, but I'm wondering about the room for improvement in my existing profile.

 

[rushworks graphics]

yeah, i honestly think your going to have to invest in some good quality color management equipement to get better noticable results.

ask eye4color he's a member on here and he seems to be clued up on all that good stuff.

 

[randya]

There is probably always room for improvement in profiles.
A profile is a calibration between a particular printer and media (in a particular environment).
So the printer used for the profile wasnt yours, even if it was the same model (there are variances, even as the printer ages), the environment wasn't yours, although hopefully it is similar.

When doing signage, this difference may be inconsequential, but to an 'artist' this and the difference in color gamut and metamerism may be significant.

So be sure and view these under controlled light as well.

I have printed on canvas with banner profiles.
The smooth and double-sided profiles typically work ok.
If you can find one with a similar white point.

 

[Colin]

Thanks Randy. Strange that a profile for a smooth banner would work well for canvas.

 

[Bly]

The best profile is the one you make for yourself. Everything else is an inferior substitute.

+1

We are charging people to accurately put ink on media.
The only way to do that effectively is with custom profiles built on your machine for the media you are using.
Especially for art and photographic prints.

 

[Colin]

Color monki only calibrates your screen and does not create profiles for your printer. Yes it is a good start in color management, but I would suggest the huey pro from x-rite for monitor calibration. It does the same thing as color munki but also measures the light in your room to determin the color on the screen. It is also way cheaper!http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANTONE-HUE...726?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e67765f1e

I forwarded your comment to my friend, and he said the following:


Your forum informant is quite sadly misinformed...(There are two versions of the ColorMunki) refer him to the Northlight article I appended to the email I sent you from yesterday.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/colormunki.html


The Color Munki does quite a bit for its price. All colorimeters/spectrophotometers are not created equal and can be quite useless if they are not accurate. It may be that it isn't good enough for exacting pro users or that the product support isn't too good, but for the price, I think it's the best you will do. The Huey is only for monitor profiling & the iOne would be better I think. As for the Huey,see:

http://www.amazon.com/Pantone-MEU11...?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar.

Obviously worked for some but a truly mixed bag.

The Xrite print profile system if you go to the pro level device runs around $1399.00 & up. This one is the real tool but the price is pretty daunting

http://vistek.ca/store/ComputerAccessories/256377/xrite-i1photo-pro.aspx

 

[eye4clr]

The i1 "photo" version you linked does not properly support your print system. Your buddy has what would be categorized as an RGB printer. That "photo" version fits him, not you. You have what is categorized a CMYK printer. IN this context this label doesn't refer to the physical inks in your machine of the type of files you like to work with.

What is being defined here is the color conversion behavior of the printing software. The general difference is whether the printer is being driven by a simple driver on the workstation or a more robust, postscript interpreter RIP. The driver converts everything going through it without precise control so you get better results profiling this as an RGB system. With these RGB systems you have no real control over the conversions and just try to characterize the process with the ICC profile you make. Generally you'd apply this ICC in your desktop app like Photoshop when you print. A RIP allows you to micromanage the conversion process so you can take direct control over how the K ink gets used and several other features of the color conversion function. Generally you'd apply the profile within the RIP and not at the desktop app level.

What you'll need is at least this....
http://www.colormall.com/store/pc/i1Publish-Pro-17p228.htm

Sorry, good output doesn't come cheap or necessarily easy (at first).

Another thing to consider for you two love birds is to go in on one of the fancy print systems offered by HP or Epson that have a spectrophotometer built in. The systems are so simple my mom could use them and the output is truly spectacular when you use the right medias.

Excuse me now, it's time for me to go drive some nails with my wife's shoe.

 

[Colin]

Thanks eye4clr. Head spinning sequence initiated. :Big Laugh

What do you think of this one I mentioned in the O/P here.