CentralSigns
New Member
Does the material supplier supply profiles for their materials. All Graphics does for the canvas types they sell, might be the answer. I know I got profiles for their version of Monet canvas.
-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
A better profile?
- Thread starter Colin
- Start date
Does the material supplier supply profiles for their materials. All Graphics does for the canvas types they sell, might be the answer. I know I got profiles for their version of Monet canvas.
SightLine
║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
The one in the original post is simply a monitor profiler. All it can do is create a monitor profile so your colors look correct on screen. It is useless for your printer. You need an Eye One Pro - if using an actual RIP your RIP may have profile creation built in. FlexiSign Pro for example does - it has built in support for an Eye One colorimeter and can walk you through the entire profiling process from setting ink limits, scanning in the color patches, setting GCR, etc.
Pre-made profiles from equipment, media, etc companies will never be as good as a custom one made for your specific machine in it's actual enviorment, ever. Every print head has it's own ever so slight variations, and the enviorment the machine is in also makes a big difference. Their profiles are made in their enviorment at their average room temperature and humidity, on their printer. When I first got our eye one several years ago - I made our first custom profile and the difference was dramatic. Not only was the color more accurate but I actually got a wider color gamut available than what the Flexi provided profiles would allow.
You also need to create a profile for each material AND each resolution for each material you plan to print for the best results. Granted - most do not go to quite this extent. Like many I have a couple of different profiles made on 3M 180 vinyl at different resolutions. These work "acceptably" for the most part on just about any gloss adhesive vinyl. Then a couple of profiles for banner stocks, a couple of display films, a couple for heat transfer materials, etc.
Also if you go to aftermarket inks like Triangle which have a wider gamut than stock inks you also need custom profiles. In the end - not only has it allowed us to have more consistent output and better color accuracy, it has also saved an unmeasureable amount of money over the years from not wasting so much material trying to match colors or wasted prints because they look bad.
It is still not going to give my solvent Mimaki the color range of a 8 to 12 color water based ink printer but it's pretty darn good and acceptable quality for many artists I have done prints for over the years.
Pre-made profiles from equipment, media, etc companies will never be as good as a custom one made for your specific machine in it's actual enviorment, ever. Every print head has it's own ever so slight variations, and the enviorment the machine is in also makes a big difference. Their profiles are made in their enviorment at their average room temperature and humidity, on their printer. When I first got our eye one several years ago - I made our first custom profile and the difference was dramatic. Not only was the color more accurate but I actually got a wider color gamut available than what the Flexi provided profiles would allow.
You also need to create a profile for each material AND each resolution for each material you plan to print for the best results. Granted - most do not go to quite this extent. Like many I have a couple of different profiles made on 3M 180 vinyl at different resolutions. These work "acceptably" for the most part on just about any gloss adhesive vinyl. Then a couple of profiles for banner stocks, a couple of display films, a couple for heat transfer materials, etc.
Also if you go to aftermarket inks like Triangle which have a wider gamut than stock inks you also need custom profiles. In the end - not only has it allowed us to have more consistent output and better color accuracy, it has also saved an unmeasureable amount of money over the years from not wasting so much material trying to match colors or wasted prints because they look bad.
It is still not going to give my solvent Mimaki the color range of a 8 to 12 color water based ink printer but it's pretty darn good and acceptable quality for many artists I have done prints for over the years.
eye4clr
New Member
Looks like that one just does monitors. Yes it adds the Pantone thing. But that doesn't really provide much real day to day benefit.
The core of what you need is the ability (and knowledge) to make a CMYK profile in your RIP. Don't sweat the monitor or fancy spot color tools. You're RIP will handle the spot colors well enough if it is able to use a custom ICC that you make.
Bottom line is don't expect to pay less than $1500 or so and be able to do it right.
The core of what you need is the ability (and knowledge) to make a CMYK profile in your RIP. Don't sweat the monitor or fancy spot color tools. You're RIP will handle the spot colors well enough if it is able to use a custom ICC that you make.
Bottom line is don't expect to pay less than $1500 or so and be able to do it right.
Colin
New Member
Thanks again. It looks like I'm at a crossroads: Either I go down the road of what you've outlined, complete with the steep learning curve, or I realize that the reality is that I'm a sign shop (not a high-end print house) and the vast majority (if not all) of my output can be handled satisfactorily with the Roland color palette system that I've been using so far.
eye4clr
New Member
Aaaaaaand there we have it. The defining moment.
No shame in being a simple sign shop that turns away fussy artist types. Trust me, they're not all that much fun to work with most of the time.
Personally, I see the real benefits of having tight color in the shop. If I had to invest all over again, I would. I like being able to hit colors the first time without a lot of fuss, time, and energy. My customers trust my output because they see it work regularly and I'm able to educate them why it matters and what I bring to it. I am also able to arm them with objective criteria to judge my competition by.
But I also see lots of busy, profitable shops with average color output that think its all just a waste of time and $. Really it just comes down to economics. If you're busy enough to offset $1500-5000 worth of color tools and training with more efficient use of time, ink, and materials, then you're stupid not to do it. If you're not busy enough, then it's just a choice of what sort of work you'll be able to do profitably or not.
No shame in being a simple sign shop that turns away fussy artist types. Trust me, they're not all that much fun to work with most of the time.
Personally, I see the real benefits of having tight color in the shop. If I had to invest all over again, I would. I like being able to hit colors the first time without a lot of fuss, time, and energy. My customers trust my output because they see it work regularly and I'm able to educate them why it matters and what I bring to it. I am also able to arm them with objective criteria to judge my competition by.
But I also see lots of busy, profitable shops with average color output that think its all just a waste of time and $. Really it just comes down to economics. If you're busy enough to offset $1500-5000 worth of color tools and training with more efficient use of time, ink, and materials, then you're stupid not to do it. If you're not busy enough, then it's just a choice of what sort of work you'll be able to do profitably or not.
I only posted that the color munki was for monitor calibration because I called x-rite and they told me it would not create profiles for my roland sc500 and that it was meant for the monitor.
She did recommend some other color meters that were way out of my league in price, so yes eye4clr is unfortunately correct, it costs lots of money and understanding how it works.
I purchased the huey pro because I figured it would be a good start(not knowing nothing about how to get this all close to perfect).
I then purchased a used x-rite digital swatchbook colormeter from fleabay. No cables of coarse, but they are ordered. It is listed as one of the tools used in my version of flexi pro 7.6. So I too am hoping to learn better color management.
If I was wrong about that meter my bad! But I was told it would not work from x-rite.
She did recommend some other color meters that were way out of my league in price, so yes eye4clr is unfortunately correct, it costs lots of money and understanding how it works.
I purchased the huey pro because I figured it would be a good start(not knowing nothing about how to get this all close to perfect).
I then purchased a used x-rite digital swatchbook colormeter from fleabay. No cables of coarse, but they are ordered. It is listed as one of the tools used in my version of flexi pro 7.6. So I too am hoping to learn better color management.
If I was wrong about that meter my bad! But I was told it would not work from x-rite.
eye4clr
New Member
I can't claim to know the Roland Color Palette System to answer that well.
I like to think of getting sell-able color being done one of 2 ways, forwards or backwards. Either you have "proper" color management with custom profiles and a common sense workflow (forward) or you print out charts of color and make your design and color tweak decisions based on that output (backwards).
Both ways work, just one is easier, more accurate, more flexible and more expensive.
Generally spending $ on monitor calibration and spot color toys is a waste unless you have the foundation of accurate output. You can have the best monitor with spectacularly accurate color and be able to measure any random object perfectly and feel like you're starting to get a handle on it. But if you still have to battle inaccurate output in your print system, then you're still battling color. Spend your $ on something more useful like XBox 360 with Kinect and some fun games, or maybe "escorts" and limousines.
I like to think of getting sell-able color being done one of 2 ways, forwards or backwards. Either you have "proper" color management with custom profiles and a common sense workflow (forward) or you print out charts of color and make your design and color tweak decisions based on that output (backwards).
Both ways work, just one is easier, more accurate, more flexible and more expensive.
Generally spending $ on monitor calibration and spot color toys is a waste unless you have the foundation of accurate output. You can have the best monitor with spectacularly accurate color and be able to measure any random object perfectly and feel like you're starting to get a handle on it. But if you still have to battle inaccurate output in your print system, then you're still battling color. Spend your $ on something more useful like XBox 360 with Kinect and some fun games, or maybe "escorts" and limousines.
Colin
New Member
Bly
New Member
Or weed and motorcycles if you're a grown man... hehe
I remember the times before we had our own profiling gear.
All the media that sometimes went in the bin trying to get a decent print..
The fear that went through me when we received a job that included greyscale photos..
Trying to think up lame excuses to give ad agencies as to why their job just didn't look quite right...
I remember the times before we had our own profiling gear.
All the media that sometimes went in the bin trying to get a decent print..
The fear that went through me when we received a job that included greyscale photos..
Trying to think up lame excuses to give ad agencies as to why their job just didn't look quite right...
Colin
New Member
Hi Rodi,
I'm not a having a problem with a particular print, it's just that, similar to being "capable" of handling customer's files with the latest software, I'm attempting some steps towards being more capable & knowledgable in the rather large realm of digi colour management. As I am rather late to the printing party, I've got some catching up to do.
I'm not a having a problem with a particular print, it's just that, similar to being "capable" of handling customer's files with the latest software, I'm attempting some steps towards being more capable & knowledgable in the rather large realm of digi colour management. As I am rather late to the printing party, I've got some catching up to do.
Colin
This may be an informative read. I too am trying to get my head around this color management monster, lol. Profiles out of the box(suppliers) seem to work until something changes, like a new head ect.
I am hoping to figure it out.
http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html
This may be an informative read. I too am trying to get my head around this color management monster, lol. Profiles out of the box(suppliers) seem to work until something changes, like a new head ect.
I am hoping to figure it out.
http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html