A plane on a treadmill - physics question

[Andy D]

I have my own answer for this, but I want to see what others think.
A word of warning: This has started some heated arguments on my FB page.

 

[Dan360]

I remember this one lol. Short answer is yes, the wheels are basically irrelevant.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

As long as it can create lift the plane will fly. If the belt was moving in the same direction at the same speed then the plane would be standing still right? Moving in the opposite direction I guess still moves the plane.

 

[GB2]

Of course not....if the plane is not moving then there is no forward thrust...then there is no air moving under the wings to create lift...therefore it sits there making a lot of noise and going nowhere, or so you might think...
but the reality is that the wheels only allow the plane to roll on the ground and are not providing that forward thrust like the wheels of a car might do, so the plane will move forward right off the conveyor and take off

 

[Gino]

Who drew that stupid plane ?? That's an even better question.

Can a man living east of the Mississippi River be buried west of the Mississippi River ??​

 

[Andy D]

D@mn it Gino, Start your own post!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Well, I looked it up and now my head exploded. I'm going back to my table to mindlessly weed letters and try to repair my brain.

 

[eahicks]

The plane will not fly. It will fall off the end of the belt. No one said the plane's engines were even on. And correct, the wheels are irrelevant.

 

[GAC05]

It's all about the speed of the air passing over/under the wing so the real question is - what would happen if they tried this on the moon.....

 

[Johnny Best]

"I'll take goofy questions for $500".
Airplane wheels only move when the plan's engines have thrust to push the plane forward. Unlike a car that has a drive shaft to the differential and axle.
So the conveyor belt would move the plane backwards.
For the belt and wheels to be going same speed it would be landing.

 

[James Burke]

 

[Andy D]

There is only one thing I know for sure, for the plane to accelerate forward & create lift,
its wheels MUST be moving faster than surface it is taking off from, there's no getting around that.
If the treadmill is matching the speed of the wheels, then it would be like a plane on a real runway with its wheels locked.

 

[unclebun]

https://jalopnik.com/here-s-the-actual-science-behind-that-plane-takeoff-mem-1797763299

 

[James Burke]

Wow, it's mighty good that the steer wheel didn't snag a hole in the mother-of-all-conveyor belts and tumble arse over tea kettle.


JB

 

[Johnny Best]

A plane that takes off on the water has no wheels, a glider is pull by another plane to get lift.
Chuck Yeager was in a plane that was drop from another plane to break the sound barrier for the first time.

 

[Andy D]

I understand perfectly that the engines thrust is independent from the ground, but they got it wrong, when he took his hand and pushed the car, the wheels were traveling faster than the treadmill.
In reality if he pushed that car and the wheels sped up, the treadmill would match instantly, forcing the wheels to speed up, which the treadmill would match... On and on, they would compound each others speed in an instant... If the treadmill had no limit to speed, it would be like splitting an atom, a uncontrollable chain reaction.

 

[GAC05]

To translate into sign-language:
Could Eric, The Vector Doctor, vectorize that drawing before the hypothetical 747 generated enough forward speed to lift off the treadmill?

 

[geckophoto]

If you put a bird into space will it float around in zero gravity with its wings open like its flying or just keep them closed and think WTF how am I flying and not using my wings?

 

[Gino]

At that height, he'd be a dead bird. He ain't thinking nothin'.

 

[Andy D]

How about imagining a set of wheels with no friction. How would the treadmill move the plane backwards, if the wheel just spun when the treadmill was turned on. Now, throw a jetpack onto that plane. It will go forward due to the jetpack, and the wheel with no friction will do its thing and spin away.
The plane works the same way, because the jet overcomes the friction of the wheels by some incredible factor.

In your scenario; once you fired up the jetpack up, the wheels would be going faster than the treadmill, in this scenario; the treadmill will instantly match the wheels speed.
A wheel MUST go faster than the surface it's on in order to move forward.